R K Gun Shows Ban Concealed Carry

[MDTN]

R.K. Gun Shows are going to have a local gun show near Chattanooga in September so I emailed and asked them about permit holders being able to carry concealed for self defense.

I was quite surprised to receive the following comments:
"We don't allow concealed carry for safety reasons. Do you realize how many John wayne types we have out there we just had a guy last year in Arkansas who had a permit shot someone in my show who sued us I am not willing to take responsibility for everyone who has a permit because there are stupid people out there who are not careful do you as an attendee feel safe with those people I don't in Georgia at a Eastman show a guy who had a permit 6 years ago that shot his own son who also took the classes just because you took classes doesn't mean you are responsible"

Here is the website where I hope everyone will flood the organization with letters, phone calls, and emails. Until they change their policy, I will not attend their gun shows (I never thought I'd shun a gun show!). They can be reached at this website: http://www.rkshows.com/contact.htm

While it's unfortunate that they had an incident in Arkansas, it's also unfortunate that they believe disarming law abiding citizens relinquishes them from taking "responsibility for everyone" and somehow makes people safer. Gun owners ARE their customer base, if we stand up for the right of self defense it should send a clear message to them. I encourage TFA members to contact them and request a change in policy.

[johnharris]

I would encourage you and everyone else to reconsider.

Gunshows present special issues involving the ability and cost of obtaining insurance and keeping the admission cost to a reasonable level.

Also, Rex, the owner of RK, is VERY, VERY friendly to TFA and supports us at his gun shows whenever we have people able to work a table.

I understand it sounds a little odd for me to take this position but believe me when I say I have worked through these issues and it is absolutely a delicate balance relative to gun shows.

[joesolo]

I am going to reconsider my previous stance........

[David Lewis]

Have you ever noticed the atrocious level of gun handling skills exhibited by some attendees at gun shows?

While overall, the level of politeness is quite high (thus proving Heinlein's dictum that "an armed society is a polite society") and muzzle awareness is generally quite high as well, there are more than occasional lapses of the latter. It happens even with people who should know better.

Some years ago, I attended a show with my then-girlfirend and another couple, at which I purchased a shotgun. As we were leaving, I remembered something else I'd meant to purchase, left the shotgun with GF, & went back to get it. As I returned, GF, thinking it to be quite a good joke, started to level the shotgun at me. She didn't understand why I started to dive to the floor as my friend quickly and deftly took the shotgun from her. She was quickly educated on both Rules 1 and 2.*

Do I like RK's (and Bill Goodman's, and formerly, Bob Pope's) policy? No. Do I understand the reasoning for it? Yes. Do I abide by it? Yes. When in Rome...

David

*Jeff Cooper's 4 Rules of Gun Handling
1 All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. (For those who insist that this particular gun is unloaded, see Rule 1.)
3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target. This is the Golden Rule. Its violation is directly responsible for about 60 percent of inadvertent discharges.
4. Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you have not positively identified.

[MDTN]

I think it's important to remember that regarding the posts of "muzzle handling" and poor gun handling at gun shows, unskilled people handling guns at gun shows are generally not permit holders. We are not talking about an armed general public here. The issue is whether or not PERMIT HOLDERS are allowed to carry for self defense. I understand insurance costs and other issues that John mentioned. I simply disagree that delicate issues are a valid reason to set aside our core beliefs. Self defense is a right, one of the most fundamental and basic human rights. I consider it my responsiblity to provide for my safety. And I generally don't support lawsuits against companies like R K just because someone else breaks the law and I were to get hurt there. It's not a car dealerships fault if a drunk driver kills someone, and it's not R K's fault if a criminal misuses a gun. But that's another topic for another time. The comments about carelessness of patrons should not be valid when referring to permit holders. We are not the general uninformed public. Let us not forget that permit holders in Tennessee have had instruction and training. Tennessee does not issue permits just because someone requests one. Self defense is a right and I will not sit idly by while faulty reasoning erodes away at that. Again, the whole "shall not be infringed" sounds pretty clear to me. I fail to see why self defense should be set aside for R K. It is very rare that I disagree with John, but this is one of those rare cases. I do appreciate John informing us of the owner's friendliness to the TFA and I do value that. And I certainly value John's opinions and weigh them very heavily. But that is still no excuse for R K's email to use the typical liberal logic by calling many of us "John Wayne" types or refering to us as wanting to bring back the Wild West. It's not true and those opinions are usually void of logic and reason. If R K cannot afford to pay for insurance premiums without banning guns then their email should have stated that their reasoning is largely due to high insurance costs that must be passed onto the patrons. Instead I received an email that seemed to be an attack on "cowboys" and based with emotion rather than explaining this. If they support self defense but simply cannot pay insurance premiums then their response should have reflected those values. It did not.

Also, David's reference to his girlfriend may not be valid. There was no mention of her being a permit holder, thus she could not have legally carried a loaded weapon anyway. We need to stay on the topic here regarding PERMIT HOLDERS being able to defend their lives. Permit Holders I know have all been, without exception, very responsible and safe. People I have known that improperly handled guns have not been permit holders. Allowing concealed carry is illegal by non-permit holders. So we should only be referring to policies regarding valid permit holders here. And let's not forget that the word "stupid" was used in the same sentance as permit holders. It may be that the customer representative responding to my question was not the owner. After reviewing John's comments it looks like it may have just been an employee. But employees are a representation of the company and they should have cited high liability costs as their reasoning for trying to remove my right to self defense. They should not have used the word "stupid" and permit holders in the same sentence. Furthermore, regarding R K's email question asking me if I feel safe. YES, I do feel safe being around other permit holders! Why did it take John to inform us that R K's policy may be due to insurance cost? Why couldn't R K have expressed respect for permit holders but admitted that extra costs would be involved in allowing carry? Their response is in appropriate and unfortunate. I would have been more inclined to respect their decision if they had said it was insurance cost reasons. I still will not attend.

[BulletBillSR]

[MDTN]

I just want to briefly mention my concern that so many permit holders seem to be concerned about being around other permit holders and feeling safe. If people have problems with the current handgun carry permit system then maybe we should open a forum to discuss any possible reforms that you might suggest. Otherwise, shouldn't we continue to fight for a permit holders right to self defense? There are some good points being made in the replies and I appreicate all of them. But I am concerned that fellow permit holders seem to not value our permitting system. Some people here seem to be distrusting of other permit holders. While I respect everyone's opinions, this just simply has not been my experience. The only permit holders I've met have all been very responsible people. It's unfortunate if some are not. But if you think our carry permit system consistently licenses unsafe people then what additional restrictions would you place on us? Where does our second amendment start and stop? Does "shall not be infringed" only apply to certain groups of citizens? I am a strong believer in applying responsibility to a violator. But I think we need to be cautious in making blanket statements about everyones self defense just because a few people don't share our good safety habits. It can be a dangerous road to start applying more restrictions to the second amendment or the right to self defense. Do we have the right to self defense? If so, can, or should, that right be taken away (even temporarily)? Furthermore, should we be asking our politicians to reform the legal system so that people cannot sue property owners or gun show companies if they are not the person that pulled the trigger or commited the offense? I have concerns about anyone who thinks disarming people is a good idea. If we really think that disarming people is okay in crowded areas then is it also okay to disarm every citizen in a city since they are heavily populated? Should we disarm people in crowded malls or at Wal-Mart? The guns that people handle at gun shows are not loaded. So if we think it's a good idea to disarm permit holders because they go to a gun show to look at guns then should we disarm people at Wal-mart because they go into the sporting section and look at guns there? I realize it's a bit of a slippery slope. But we've fought very hard for restaurant carry and for 10 days now have enjoyed that freedom of self defense without hearing of any "crazy" permit holders. So why wouldn't we want to apply that same logic at gun shows? I've always thought that the benefit of the permit system was to once again start recognizing our right to self defense outside our home. Keep the good viewpoints coming. It's the best way for each of us to better understand and evaluate what we believe. One more quick thing. I do NOT know if it was Rex himself who responded to the email. It may have just been an employee. So please don't assume that Rex himself responded that way. I disagree with their decision to disarm permit holders but that doesn't mean that I don't respect Rex. He may be a fine fellow, I just disagree with his decision.

[joesolo]

....(continuing) and probably let this thread fade away.

[BulletBillSR]

[johnharris]

Any one of you who don't like how I handle these issues can move to Nashville and donate huge portions of your life without compensation to work on these issues and try to move TFA forward. I don't see any of you negotiating with Rex or David Goodman or Pope over allowing TFA and its workers into the show, or promoting TFA on its merchandise. If you want to go and make my tasks any more difficult or time consuming than they already are, then why?

I hear all kinds of people - many who do very little - whine about rights, the law and saying "john why don't you ... blah, blah, blah" on a regular basis. I don't think people realize how donated much time month it takes to do what I have done with TFA. There are times when I hear complaints like this and I am about ready to just say "here - you do it then."

I understand Rex's issues. I understood them Pope owned the show. I don't have a problem with the rule.

[BulletBillSR]

[C. Richard Archie]

For those who take a minute to think, there is no restriction on carry to the door, unload whilst inside, safe the weapon, and reload on the trip back to the vehicle. No different than say, any police officer upon entry to the inside of a jail. The very atmosphere of the show is to pick up and handle weapons, how many times have I seen the uninitiated grab up a long arm and swing it inside the shows without regard to the position of the muzzle? There are a multitude of neophytes among the tables, gun purchases have skyrocketed, and remember, those hundreds of people who do not know the trigger from the butt are the sames ones who are diving the cars on our streets, if that is not enough to give pause, I do not know what should. For those of us who live daily with live weapons, the circus atmosphere of a gun show tends to bring on a certain concern, at least it does for me.

I have seen personally the endeavor and dedication of John in the effort to further our cause. Just last weekend, he and a truck load of dedicated men loaded up at 4:30 in the morning to drive to an RK show in Jackson to assist me in recruiting members, all day on their feet, into the night to assist in founding another Chapter. When every person who disagrees with the decisions of a venue that affords us a free stage, invest the same amount of time, energy, and personal money, to then labor for the cause, being away from family, in the service of others, always in the quest to promote your freedoms, then you can bitch about the small stuff.

John, I personally apologize for those who fail to realize the sacrifices that you make for us!

[BulletBillSR]

[joesolo]

PM sent to John and C Richard. I think it went successfully. Please let me know if I need to retry.

[lilredhunter]

Folks I know I am new here and this is only my 2nd or 3rd post. However for one I appreciate everything John has done with & for TFA. I also know and have seen one reason for the no loaded weapons at gun shows. I was at a show in KY with a family member and the show did allow loaded weapons. We were standing near about 4 people that were carrying. They were talking with a dealer and one of the guys carrying was telling another customer that the weapon he was looking at was not a heavy weapon to carry and pulled back his jacket. Another patron of the show politely reaches over and plucks it out of the mans holster and said hey that thing is nice. Before he could get it away the guy had leveled toward the dealer. Thank goodness it had a safety. Because the man didn't know much about guns and placed his finger on the trigger. Had he been able to pull the trigger he would have killed the dealer. He also managed to scare the crap out of many of us. He was very quickly escorted out of the show. So I understand the disarming at the door. Plus have any of you ever noticed the amount of ammo collected of people coming in with guns? Much of the ammo is very old and should have been shot yrs ago. I have also seen someone buying ammo and say are you sure this will fit? Then try loading the weapon to be sure. So it isn't about the permit holders. It is more about the people who don't have the firearms knowledge to know better about things.

[SomeGuy]

[lilredhunter]

It definitely could have turned out much different. Good thing the guy didn't have a BUG he could have shot the other guy . There are so many other ways this could have ended badly. Just glad it ended on a good note.

[KevinMcCauley]

People have property rights & I have no real problem with them being exercised.

Old ammo? If it's stored correctly it should last a very long time. I am shooting 7.62x54R that is nearly 60 years old without any problems. Unless there are obvious signs of corrosion, I see no reason to worry about it...