How you can legally carry in any park in TN.

[macville]

[johnharris]

If I recall correctly, there have been criminal convictions for possession - carrying not transport - of unloaded firearms because of the capacity to brandish.

[GraceOutcast]

It's still called "Armed Robbery" even if they use an unloaded firearm. The only law I can think of that has anything to do differentiating between loaded and unloaded is for transportation in a vehicle like John said

[macville]

[rheppert]

Obviously the biggest "loophole" is the 2nd Amendment that should trump all state laws ...
but that is not what you are looking for.

I took a TN criminal law course some 30 years ago taught by a county DA. I have more recently confirmed by a local DA that the TN law is still interpreted the same today. Our instructor told us that the only thing that makes the weapons you mentioned illegal is your intent and that the burden is on the State to prove such intent by either your actions or words.

He went on to say possession itself doesn't matter. If it is concealed or loaded is irrelevant in TN, only intent. You can walk down the street with a 45 strapped to your hip and an officer can't legally ask you what you are doing with the weapon. He might say nice gun, and you might reply, something like, yep, you never know when you might find a rattlesnake, and he now has you on intent to be armed, if he wants since you just provided the intent.

On the other hand, you might just say, "yep it is a nice one" or "yep, I like to impress women with it", and neither statement provides intent to be armed. Obviously displaying a weapon while "asking" someone to hand over money that doesn't belong to you also is considered intent by an action.
None of this means that an officer is not going to haul you in on some charge, but you should be able to beat the possession one if they can't prove intent to be armed.

Sooo. in summary, if you keep it concealed and don't admit having it to be armed, then you -should- be good to go.
The TN Permit allows you to carry with intent to be armed in -most- places. However I don't see where the laws that ban guns in local parks (as unconstitutional as some people may believe they are) don't apply because a gun is open or unloaded (mostly useless). It should apply. Luckily for me, they didn't choose to close most of our local parks, so it is not an issue for me come Sept 1.

I am not a lawyer, and don't play one on TV.

[macville]

[TacticaLogic]

Okay, I've watched this one long enough... Time to comment...

I think that knowing the law down to the "nth" degree is great, but I also think it wise to make sure that "testing boundaries" would be in one's best interest. In other words, "If I do this, will it be beneficial to me?" An unloaded handgun is nothing more than a very expensive club, and not a very good one at that. It would allow a bad guy to get closer to me than I want should I be intent on striking him with it. Before I openly carry an unloaded handgun, I'm going to carry (and use) my bent oak 1.25" diameter cane. (Massad Ayoob has a great course on the implementation of a cane, walking stick or hiking staff for defensive purposes.) The cane has the wood density, weight, and shape that allows me to do an awful lot of damage to someone intending to go "hands on" with me. I can certainly do a lot more damage with that than I could an unloaded Glock or S&W N Framed revolver. As far as I know, I've not seen any postings anywhere that would prohibit me from carrying my cane should I wish to do so. While I have no intentions of going into a park that doesn't allow me to carry my handgun, I will carry my cane should I absolutely have to go in to some place that is posted. Given the choices, my preferences would be: 1) Go armed with a carbine (thanks to the new law HCP holders can do so in their vehicle as long as the chamber is empty); 2) Go armed with my handgun (I get a "twofer" this way when in the vehicle); 3) Don't go anywhere that is posted, legally or otherwise (I say "legal or otherwise" because the best way to impact those that would take away our 2nd Amendment right is in the pocketbook. They deserve neither my money or an arguement from me); and 4) If I must go there and it is posted, I will go in with my cane and my Emerson/Benchmade CQC7 knife while maintaining a "condition orange" mindset in order to avoid (as best as is possible) becoming a victim.

Now... Beyond the fact that a handgun is a poor impact weapon... Remember, the title of this thread is: Why create a scene just to try and make a point that is otherwise useless?

At best, you get noticed and someone calls the police. They roll in, see you with the weapon, and then hold you at gunpoint until they have you cuffed and the situation is deemed "under control." That is as long as you don't move in such a way that the officers feel you are a threat and then dump half a magazine or more into your body. But let's say you don't mess up, they are holding your handgun, and the situation is now "under control." Now you have to try and educate the officers on the scene. Not going to happen. They are going to take the easy way out and place you under arrest. If they are wrong, the DA won't prosecute and the officers will get an admonition from the DA about the situation. But to the officers, you come off as an unstable person if you even slightly raise your voise about something you are very passionate (that's hard not to do.) I would say that if you openly carry an unloaded handgun in a posted park you have about a 95% probability of leaving in either the backseat of a patrol car, an ambulance, or the medical examiners van. You get the 5% for the likelihood that someone doesn't see you and call the police. Keep in mind now, that all of this is just to prove a point - because we've already established that there are better legally carried items that can be used to defend yourself in a posted park (if you really just have to go to that park.)

And boy what a scene you have just created all to try and prove a point... A scene which, regardless of whether or not you are correct, will cost you dearly in legal fees when you are arrested. Remember this: It doesn't matter whether you win or loose your case, you are still going to be out legal fees. You are still going to have your HCP suspended and perhaps revoked. Those are just items I can think of off of the top of my head. I'm sure that there is a myriad of problems related to this type of arrest that come into play for some and not for others. The stigma attached to having your name printed in the local paper regarding your arrest. The fact that some companies have a policy of terminating people arrested for certain misdemeanors and most felonies - and that is regardless of guilt or innocence. A soon-to-be ex-spouse would love to have this as ammunition in a divorce case. It would also get a lot of mileage regarding who gets custody of the kids. Along with these items, ALL HANDGUN CARRY PERMIT HOLDERS PAY FOR THE ACTIONS OF INDIVIDUAL HANDGUN CARRY PERMIT HOLDERS THAT COMMIT CRIMES. You had better believe that papers like the Communist Appeal and Pravda on the Cumberland (aka The Tennessean) check the Carry Permit Database everytime they see a gun related crime, just so that they can portray the rest of us in a bad light.

I think I will leave the dare-devil stunts to the "drunk on Friday and Saturday night" crowd. They are always willing to learn their lesson the hard way, and then just write it off to experience. I prefer to learn my lessons from others, and move forward. If you think I am soft on my interpretation of the Constitution because of the statements I have made, think again. I interpret it very conservatively, and will defend it (having done so in the uniform of my country and out of uniform when called upon to do so, with the scars to prove it) to my last breath. I have taken an oath to do so against all enemies foreign and domestic - that doesn't end just because you no longer work for "your uncle."

I say always go armed with the best weapon you can... LOADED rifle/carbine, LOADED handgun, LOADED impact weapon (in this case, LOADED means you know how to use it!), LOADED blade weapon (again, LOADED means you know how to use it), Pepper spray/taser, and then, if you have no other choice, the unloaded longarm or handgun. Notice those two are on the bottom of my list. Along with your weapon, make sure you have your reload, your quality flashlight, and your cellphone... Life is unpredictable, go loaded for bear!

Now that everyone knows how I really feel, I'll bring this novel to a close...

Regards,
Mike



From TPM LiveWire

By Rachel Slajda - August 11, 2009, 5:21PM

Earlier today, MSNBC's cameras spotted a protester carrying a gun outside Portsmouth High School, where President Obama was about to hold a health care town hall. And, as he just told Chris Matthews on Hardball, the gun was loaded.

"Who'd be silly enough to carry an unloaded firearm?" said the protester, William Kostric.

Matthews then asked him why he brought the gun to a presidential event.

"That's not even a relevant question. The question is, why don't people bear arms these days?" Kostric said.

He said no one from New Hampshire was alarmed by seeing the gun, which was strapped to his leg. Maybe the people "bused in from Massachusetts" were alarmed, he said.

"They already have their health care scheme and their socialism. They can keep it," he said.

Kostric was also carrying a sign that said, "It is time to water the tree of liberty," an apparent reference to this quote attributed to Thomas Jefferson: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

Matthews asked Kostric to say the rest of the quote -- the part not on his sign. He only responded that was for people to "look up. It's not a sound bite."

"I'm not advocating violence," he said. "I'm advocating an informed society, an armed society, a polite society."

[Dan Lee]

While I was thinking of protest ideas for the parks issue, I really liked my idea of walking through the park with a pitchfork.. I don't think that's illegal.. Happy Winnowing! It has a rather historical & symbolic touch to it also..

[macville]

Mike, I think you missed my main point. I would not be carrying an empty firearm to make a point or use as a club. I only ever were carry an unloaded handgun because I can not carry it loaded in that place and I feel it would be safer on me rather than sitting in my car where it could be stolen. That is the ONLY reason I would carry an empty gun. I just don't like the thought of my firearm getting into a criminal hands because some dumb official thought the "kids" would be safer if I couldn't carry my firearm.

Matthew

[TacticaLogic]

Matthew,

Okay, I acknowledge your point about not leaving the handgun in the car so that it could possibly be stolen... But, my points about open carry of an unloaded handgun in a posted park still hold true as far as the possible outcomes are concerned. The hoplophobic crowd will still call the police on you, with the possible results being described in my previous post.

The best way to handle the situation would be, in my opinion, to make your vehicle and its contents a harder target for the criminal.

Rule number 1 should be to ask yourself "why do I have to leave my vehicle and gun here at all?" If you have an alternative that keeps you from having to leave the gun in the vehicle, use it. When I do have to leave my vehicle parked it is in a high traffic, well observed and well lit areas. That is not only for the safety of any firearms that might be contained within the vehicle, but it is a safety factor for my family and myself as well. Besides, I'm not Paul Kersey, and I have no need to seek out bad guys in seedy parts of town just to get in a little target practice. There are certain areas where I wouldn't park a vehicle period. Those are the areas where a vehicle of any value draws thieves and thugs like moths to a flame... Don't go there.

Rule number 2 should be that you don't advertise your vehicle's contents through stickers and decals. While I am guilty of expressing my political views and gun brand preferences through the stickers on the back window of my SUV, I would be better off not attracting the attention of would-be gun thieves. But I do prefer to make my views known... So... I weigh one against the other. By using a large (48"x12"x6"), lockable, extremely heavy, custom built steel box that fits behind my second row of seats, I can secure any and all weapons that I might have need to secure with its double locks (up to about 6 longarms if I place them correctly.) I consider this to be my mitigating factor regarding the stickers on my back glass... If they break into my truck because they think I've left an unsecured weapon in the vehicle, they have a big surprise coming. I'm a big guy, and that box is hard enough to move empty - let alone trying to get it over the 2nd row or 3rd row of seats while in the vehicle and while it weighs even more.

Rule number 3 should be that you "don't talk about guns to anyone you don't know." Even if you talk to people you do know, you should be very selective about it. How much will your friends tell their friends that may not have the best of intentions? We've all heard someone tell a story about a gun that "a friend of theirs" has. I've had people that didn't know me or know what I do for a living tell me stories about their friends that have unregistered class 3 weapons... What if I worked (God forbid it) for the BATFE? Someone would be cooling their heels in federal lock-up somewhere... My point is bad people don't mind "casing" you, your house, or your car, if they feel that they can get a payoff in stolen guns.

People don't need to know what we have as far as firearms... If they don't know where it is, they don't know where to steal it.

Regards,
Mike

[lilredhunter]

Matthew I think everybody is missing the real point. Just as the 2nd Amendment has been interpreted to mean many things, however most are wrong from what our Fore Fathers really intended. The point is if you carry in a posted park, whether loaded or unloaded you are leaving too many things that will be interpreted. When we leave things for others to interpreted by others we create a chance and it is a huge chance that others will not see things as we do.