Purchase denied just TWO DAYS afer one had been approved!

[RobertNashville]

Hello everyone!

I just submitted my TFA membership yesterday and joined the forum and I hate it that my very first post on the forum here is with a problem but it's just sort of "where I'm at" right now.

Back in late August I (August 24th) I submitted my application for a handgun carry permit and in a letter dated November 4th I received a letter stating that my permit could not be issued because of an arrest on my record from 1991. I was told that I needed to obtain certified documents from the court showing the disposition of the charge. I won't go into a lot of detail about the charge; it really should have never been filed but that's neither here nor there…in the end, I successfully completed a "Diversion" program and that's where I thought things would end; obviously I was wrong. It took me a while to obtain (what I hope will be) the required documents and I submitted them a week ago so I'm hopeful that will allow my permit to be issued soon.

However, this is where things get a bit strange…

Last Saturday, I purchased a new handgun from a local dealer that I intend to be my carry weapon (assuming my permit is issued) and frankly, whether it's issued or not, I had intended to buy it anyway. My background check went through with no problem. Then, last night, from the same dealer, I decided to purchase a pump shotgun strictly for home defense purposes BUT TBI denied my purchase (after having just approved one two days earlier)!

Of course I don't know at the moment, since I've absolutely nothing else on my record and have never been in trouble with the law (with the exception of a few speeding tickets) I can only assume that this "arrest" from 1991 is the problem just as it was with my application for a carry permit. I've already faxed in my appeal of the denial and I assume all I can do right now is wait but this is beyond infuriating.

I've purchased many handguns and shotguns since 1991 both while I still lived in Ohio and since I've lived it Tennessee…I've gone through any number of background checks with no problem so why in the world is it a problem NOW???

I don't really have a "question" as such and I suppose all I can do is let this play out…I guess I just needed to vent a little. That said, if anyone has any advice to offer it would certainly be appreciated!

Thanks for listening!

[RobertNashville]

I though I’d give a quick update on my situation…

My HCP has been approved (per email received from the Department of Safety after my email inquiry) and I was promised 12-14 work days for it to be printed and mailed so I should receive it by the first week of January.

As to my denial of purchase, I submitted my appeal on December the 8th (the next morning after I was denied) and even though I supplied my email address on my denial form and have also been told by my vendor that they receive responses (Conditional Approvals, etc) by email, I’ve heard nothing and the “15th” day was yesterday (the 22nd).

I called TCIS this morning and received a “we’re behind” excuse…I reminded the person that as I understand the law, being “behind” isn’t an extension of the 15 day processing limit…after my conversation, I faxed a letter to the unit politely explaining this to them and requesting that they immediately contact me/my vendor with the disposition of my appeal.

I don’t know that my letter will really accomplish anything but I usually feel being proactive is better than simply waiting…if I haven’t received a response by early next week I guess I’ll either retain an attorney and/or start making some calls to my state Representative/Senator to get them involved.

Oh well; as Doctor McCoy once said; “the bureaucratic mentality is the only constant in the universe”.

Merry Christmas!

[johnharris]

Contact your senator and your house member (state not federal) in writing and complain that the TBI is knowingly and willfully violating their legal and express statutory duty. Ask them to look into what sanctions can be taken against TBI for violating your rights and if their office will get involved.

They may not, but if more people would call and alert their legislators when problems like this arise then we will be better able to pass laws to fix these problems (which may be a funding issue in some instances) and, when its not a problem that inadequate funding will address, to when necessary punish those state employees, if any, who are willfully violating your rights.

It would help if copies of the relevant paperwork were scanned for future use.

I would also suggest whenever ANYONE makes calls like this that those calls are tape recorded and that efforts are made to note the date and the identity of the person on the phone giving these legally unjustified excuses.

The key to changing laws and holding state agencies accountable is undisputeable evidence of violations and misconduct.

[RobertNashville]

Thank you for the advice and I will follow-up as you suggest.

You are absolutely correct about recording the conversation and I'm an idiot for not doing so; I even have a third-party recording service I use when counseling folks over the phone and could easily have used it for this!

One good piece of good news is that I DID receive my HCP in today's mail (a bit earlier than I expected based on the time frame promised) so that part of my "problem" has at least finally been solved!

I'll post updated here on my appeal.

Thanks again!

[johnharris]

You can always call back and ask again....

[RobertNashville]

Yes...and I will.

I'm traveling over Christmas but will be back in town on Sunday...if I don't have an email by late Monday morning and/or my vendor hasn't been give at least a conditional approval by then my next step will be to call back and this time, record the conversation.

[ProguninTN]

Good luck in your fight, Robert. Please do heed John's advice. (They may need to be reminded that the law applies to them too.)

[RobertNashville]

I called TCIS today...I'm starting to think that all these people do are give a runaround.

The very nasty voiced lady that took my call demanded my TCIS transaction number; not an unusual request but I didn't have the appeal form in front of me and offered my name and DL number (which is precisely what I've given their office in the past in two separate attempts to follow-up on my appeal and which they've used to find my data)...no go for this lady; she said she couldn't do anything without the transaction number. So...I hung up and retrieved all my paperwork and called again.

This time I gave her the transaction number and after a few moments she came back on the line and asked me who my vendor was...I told her and she said that's not the vendor the transaction number comes back to. I asked her to check again and read the number again...after a pretty substantial pause she came back on the line and said I should be getting a letter "within a few days". I asked here why the TCIS denial form asks for an email address and says that if provided, they will communicate with me by email? The lady said they only use email if they overturn the denial.

At this point I "reminded" here that the law says 15 days and we are already a week past that and further reminded them that if they don't have evidence to show I'm ineligible to purchase they are required to issue at leas a conditional appeal. I also stated that my vendor that they receive either approvals or conditional proceeds by email. She then stated that the (apparently only one) lady who does conditional approvals and send them be email was not in the office today and I would have to call back on Thursday.

That's when I hung up.

I'm now drafting emails to Senator Ketron's office and Representative Rowlands's office and will call them this afternoon or tomorrow morning to follow-up.

[johnharris]

Make sure to let them know if you have audio tapes for them to listen to.

[RobertNashville]

[johnharris]

I hear way to many citizens report that TBI is disregarding the 15 limit that it has. We need to make the elected officials and those who want to be elected aware that a state agency just ignores this requirement and either force them (budget) and/or change the law to make the individuals in the agency who disregard the statutory mandate somehow responsible and/or a ground for termination.

[RobertNashville]

I was able to complete my purchase today on a conditional approval.

If I've read the TBI/TCIS website I'm expecting some sort of explanation regarding why this was held up in the first place and then hopefully be able to supply the information they need so this doesn't happen to me again.

I do have a question now, however, which is "what can I do to help keep this from happening to other people"? That is, do you/anyone here have any suggestions on what I could do to put pressure on TCIS so they comply with the law and not simply give people the runaround/force them to contact State Senators/Representatives simply to get them to follow the law?

I've no problem with background checks but I do expect them to be quick...22 days for a conditional approval and only that after getting a State Senator involved is beyond ridiculous as is being told they "are behind" and being told that they don't use email (completely opposite what the appeal form itself says) are all also ridiculous.

So...I ask again...what can I do?

I intend to follow-up with Senator Ketron's and Representative Rowland's office but since my particular problem is now solved I'm not sure what I can/should ask or expect of them.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks!!!

[johnharris]

Robert,

What can you do?

Documenting abuses is important. You have done that and now I encourage you to preserve the proof.

Alerting legislators is important. You have done that but don't stop. Keep bringing this up and reminding them that we may need legislative amendments. The law exists but it has not teeth relative to the government employees and department charged with it. We need teeth. Ask your elected officials if they would sponsor legislation to put teeth in the law. Ask them for employment consequences, denial of funding to TBI, ask them for some form of accountability. Ask them if they would have their offices write to TBI and demand a report of the timing on all similar challenges over the last 2 years. Let us find out how many there are. If the TBI is not keeping records - which I doubt - maybe we need a change that requires TBI to track that data so that we can find out if the problem is one systemic to the agency (perhaps) and/or arising out of a particular state employee not doing his or her job timely (how could that even remotely be?).

Also, you can monitor other forums and sites for people who raise similar questions and refer them back to this thread or this forum so that we can start quantify the problem.

[ProguninTN]

Robert, I'm with John on this. I have not had any problems, but you should keep pressing. By contacting your legislators, they may be to conduct some type of probe or hearing to determine who/what the problem is and get it corrected. I also agree with John that the government should have consequences for not obeying the laws. Just think, if it was a citizen pulling this nonsense, there would be prosecution. (Fines, jail, etc.)

[Dan Lee]

It seems like some folks will use any & all excuses available to deny people their second amendment right. I'm sorry you had to deal with that Robert. I too encourage you to take it to the limit of your recourse. They work for us of course, not the other way around. I think some forget that often.. Best wishes, & please let us know how it turns out if you decide to contact your Reps..