The Tennessean's assault is pre-emptive...

[johnharris]

[Tim Nunan]

[Thumpszilla]

Well fellows I love my gun as much as the next guy but I somewhat have to agree with them that guns have no place in bars. I also have to agree that guns and alcohol do not mix. Yes I did read that it said as long as you didn't drink. But lets look at this scenario. I go to a bar with my wife to pick up some friends and some guys try to pick her up. There are 3 of them and they have been drinking there is 1 of me and then her friends have not made it there yet. I ask them to leave her alone and they want to fight I am out numbered and they have been drinking. I do not want to fight. They keep pushing the issue. Finally they push too far and I snap I draw my gun and I shoot 1 of them. Now I will more than likely go to prison 1 of the drunks is likely dead ( if I have to shoot I will shoot to kill) My wife is now alone to raise our 3 children and work. All this because some friends asked us to pick them up at the bar.

So I have to agree with them on that guns do not need to be in a place that serves alcohol by the drink. You may go there packing with the best of intentions and with every intention not to drink but you don't have to for the situation to go bad fast. Not to mention you will have those who go packing and do not plan to drink but end up drinking then you have a drunk with a loaded gun in a bar full of other drunks. This law might would be great for some but not for all and that is what we have to look at the big picture not just me not just you.

You may not agree with the opinions posted here but they are just that my opinions and I am not trying to force them on you. I am merely giving you my thoughts on the matter and something to think about. Yes I am pro gun but I am also concern with the safety of others as well as myself. Please do not take it as I think you are not thinking of others.

[SomeGuy]

Thump,

Having read your post, it sounds to me as if you do not trust yourself in such a place. Fine, if you cannot trust your own judgement, don't carry. Enjoy living in a free state where you can make yourself vulnerable at will.

That said, some of us have good judgement we can trust, and do not want to become worm food.

[tjbert47]

Thumpszilla
You need to go back to ccw school. You certainly can't shoot someone for trying to pick up your wife drunk or sober. An intelligent person leaves the place before it gets that far. Just a thought.

Tom in TN

[Thumpszilla]

I am just giving a for instance and mark my words this will end up happening with someone somewhere. I do not drink and do not go to bars or to resteraunts that serve alcohol. I do not feel comfortable with my kids around a bunch of drunks and therefor I do not go to these places either. Also if I were to go to a bar it would be to have a drink and therefor would be breaking this law anyways.

Someguy Do you believe in God? If so than why are you so worried about becoming worm dirt as you put it. When it is your time you will go gun in hand or not.

[SomeGuy]

Thump,

My becoming worm food may mean that some people who depend on me (until I can convinve them to carry) would be joining me. The females may be on the wrong end of a rape before that as well. I would prefer that to not happen.

Secondly, by your standard I shouldn't bother carrying at all. (Nevermind that Christ ORDERED his disciples to be armed, see Luke 22:35-38.)

[tjbert47]

Thumpszilla

My wife and I do not drink either. However we would like to go some were other than Burger King for a meal once in a while.

Tom in TN

[johnharris]

[The Rabbi]

In KY, if memory serves, one is allowed to carry in a bar similar to what we are proposing. In VA one is allowed to carry into a bar, as long as it is open carry. In neither state have permit holders gone psycho and started shooting.
Guys, it is an issue of trusting the honest citizen to act responsibly. If they dont then they suffer the consequences. But prohibiting them before the act is plain statism.

[Thumpszilla]

[aleekat]

[lassante]

Interesting thread folks.
+1 to Thumpzilla and johnharris for raising some good points. I'd like to throw my own 2 cents worth in -just in case anyone is really bored and has nothing better to do than read my rants.

1) Calling the Tennessean "liberal" is like calling Bill Clinton liberal -not surprising, but not really correct. The Tennessean is typical Gannett middle-of-the-road pablum -designed to appeal to the masses. Want a liberal paper? I can suggest some excellent examples in DC, NYC, Detroit, LA, etc. I'm usually amazed when the Tennessean has a STRONG opinion on anything, left, right or middle.
2) I gotta agree that bars and guns dont mix. The potential for trouble exists -big time. So....

To me, its the tried-and-true argument over where do we draw the line on our rights? Basically, our general system of government is set up to draw the line between the individual and the collective right. For example, I have the right to free speech, but if I shout "FIRE!" in a crowded theater and cause a stampede, I'm going to jail. And I would deserve to go, and there is not a court in the land that would say the 1A protects me.

Now, over time, the line has moved back and forth with the whims of the people and the government. For example, in war time, speech is often curtailed in the name of "national security." (Sound familiar?) But, generally the people and the courts understand. The 2A is no different. It does not guarantee us an unfettered right to bear arms, just as 1A does not grant me the right to shout fire in that theater. The question ultimately is WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE? In other words, what regulation of speech/arms/whatever preserves the rights of the individual AND ALSO preserves the rights of "the people." So, I can swing my fist right up until it hits your nose. Then YOUR rights are in play -and I go to jail.

So, the debate then becomes, what are reasonable limits on any given right? Machine guns? Pistols in bars? Sparrow missles? Tactical nuke? Trident III strategic nuke? Clearly in this country we have a disagreement or two when it comes to the rights guranteed in 2A. An excellent synopsis of it all was presented in this forum as such:

Guys, it is an issue of trusting the honest citizen to act responsibly. If they dont then they suffer the consequences.

How far do we trust? We've been arguing about it for 200+ years now and I see no end in sight. A scared society does not want to trust. If we had no crime, there would be no gun control arguments. And, ironically, one less need for guns! An interesting tension.

Thanks for letting me chime in. Be safe out there.

[johnharris]

[lassante]

"My point is not whether we can rationalize the existence of a law such as the alcohol statute but does it have such a "well-defined" crime prevention purpose."

True enough. However, I think it can be reasonably argued that a "well-defined" crime prevention purpose can be measured in the statute as it is currently written. Gotta go to a meeting now, but more later.

[Mousegun]

There is quite a good number of other states that allow carry at an establishment that serves liquor in various forms. Some say it can't make more than 50% of its revenue from alcohol and others claim you can't be drinking while carrying.

Either way, the question is how much grief has this caused in other places verses the restrictive law we have here in Tennessee?

Do you know that the law is so restrictive and ridiculous that it actually prohibits police from carrying in a place that serves if they are ON (or off)duty and not performing a police function. This means that they legally can not go into a restaurant that serves and have lunch with their gun on them. -----------Don't believe me, ---------- go out and buy the book "Carrying a Handgun for Self Defense in Tennessee written by some guy named "John Harris" and take a look at page 37. This is beyond sensibility and in reality, I don't think my well being and safety is any less than a police officer. As stupid as the law is for officers, so too is it for me and you. How many officers have been sited for breaking this law? None I bet because who is going to be the siteeeeee, another officer, I think not, but what would happen if I got caught carrying in a restaurant that serves. The answer is obvious.

If this state allows you to drink X amount of booze and as long as you are "below the legal limit", drive a car that is involved in way more deaths per year in Tennessee than firearms will ever be, then it should legally allow me in a restaurant if I am NOT drinking and permit me to protect my person, my loved ones and to take it one step further, the lives of others that might be in danger.

I have actually had someone tell me that the law is reasonable because if a drunk came up to an officer when he was eating lunch or dinner and started a confrontation, the officer's gun could be snatched and used against him.

What would happen if I was in the street and a drunk came up to me and started something? He too could snatch my weapon if he got the best of me ( I would not draw unless I honestly thought death was imminent). Is this reason to prevent me from owning and carrying a firearm? Nope. It is also not a reason for me or any other person from not being held responsible enough to carry in an alcohol serving establishment.

We that have accepted the responsibility of self protection with a potentially deadly weapon have risen above the crowd and baring very few exceptions, can handle the responsibility well.