Tennessee Firearms Assoc. Inc.

Last night I was pulled over for a headlight being out on my vehicle, & then harassed by the officers involved because I didn't answer "where I was coming from.." I believe that most of the problem was a Knowledge & Training issue..

To make a long story short, they went back to their cruiser & ran my info, & the dispatcher told them I had a carry permit. They then came back & asked me to step out of the vehicle, & asked me if I had any weapons on me. I told them that I had my pocket pistol in my right front pocket. The officer then asked me if I knew I was supposed to present my Carry Permit to him as soon as he got to my window. I politely told him that his assertion was incorrect, & that I had no requirement to inform him that I had a weapon, or a permit. At that point his partner said, "Ok, this is what we're going to do, put your hands behind your back, & I'm going to disarm you for our safety". I said fine, but be careful taking that pistol out of my pocket, as there's no safety on a keltec.. He said "Don't worry, I won't shoot you."

Then a little later, he placed my pistol in my car, & went back to call their shift supervisor. I would find out after it was all over that he left it on top of my center console, loaded & pointing at me. They gave me a $125 ticket, which I plan to appeal, because my records show that I replaced both headlights under a year ago. But that is not my beef.. The problem was the militancy of the stop, & the ridiculous assumption of "reasonable suspicion" just because didn't feel like telling them I was coming from the Kroger clinic to deal with an eye infection. They also asked to search my car, to which I respectfully declined..

The reason I am not naming the officers or jurisdiction involved, is because I later spent about 45 min at the dept. involved's headquarters, & spelled out my objections, from the lack of knowledge on my requirements to show a permit, to the unsafe handling of my pistol during & after the events took place. From my very productive discussion with the shift commanders (Both Sergeants), I feel that they understood the mistakes that were made, & that they would indeed have a discussion with the officers involved to make sure they understand where the lines are. They apologized for the mistakes that were made, & took full responsibility, So in my view there is no need to drag anyone through the mud on this..

I am posting this however to encourage other legal carrier's NOT to tolerate this type of behavior, & if you don't think they get it when you discuss it with a senior officer, then go ahead & file a complaint. Initially I was going to do that, by after our long discussion, I was satisfied that the Sergeants I spoke to were indeed respectful & cognizant of the importance of maintaining the civil rights of legally armed citizens.

If it happens again within the same jurisdiction, I will unfortunately have to expose it, as Sunlight is often the best disinfectant.

It's just so much easier to hand then your HCP with your DL. It lets them know you are a law abiding citizen and that helps put them at ease. Most of the time they will thank you and sometimes even forgive your indiscretion.

You know the more I think about what Robert & Grace Outcast are suggesting here, the more I realize how far we've slipped as a society from understanding our fundamental civil rights..

Since when is it my job to convince a Police officer "I'm a Law abiding citizen", when there was no crime committed in the first place, or in their presence, or even the presence of a witness, to make them think otherwise? They were LOOKING for trouble.. They even admitted to me that they ask these questions to try & catch drug dealers lying about where their coming from, or going to..

It's more of the militant BS that I've talked about before here.. The excuse is "The War on Drugs" & the "War on This, & That." They are being trained to interrogate people, & if they don't like what they hear or DON'T hear even, they harass you. It is indefensible behavior in light of the United States Constitution & the Bill of Rights, Period..

I will not tolerate it, & nobody else should feel obligated to feed their problem & coddle them by volunteering information that is not required, just so they'll "feel better".

It's not my responsibility to make cops more comfortable in their jobs! If they are that afraid, do something else! If they suspect every citizen who has a headlight out of "other crimes" than I would submit we are turning into a fascist Police state, & we're in really big trouble.. My responsibility is to follow the law, which I did, to the letter, but I still got harassment! It's not right, & it never will be no matter what lame excuses anyone tries to make for it... Or what suggestions you make to make them feel better.. I am not against being polite, but if I or anyone else IS NOT polite, it still doesn't give them any latitude to start violating people's rights, & making law up as they go along. THAT is exactly what they did.. The officers disarmed me only after I told them they were wrong about me having to show him my permit when they walk up to the car.. The only reason it came up, is because they had the dispatcher LOOKING for a carry permit, probably because I have an NRA sticker on my truck.. It was either a case of poor training, or raging robo-cop egos.. I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt & say it was a training issue, but Either way, it is WRONG..

I'll tell you another thing. A big problem is transplanted officers coming into Tennessee from places like the People's Republic of Michigan, & California, where they are used to violating people's rights, & getting away with it. They come here & they are shocked that "Civilian Peasants" are allowed to carry. Not all of them of course, but many of them.. Wake up & smell the coffee gentleman.. Police militancy is indeed alive & well, & a growing problem..

Courtesy....that is all. I think you looked for something that wasn't in my post. As far as "indiscretion", I didn't mean headlight. I meant any other reason for an officer to pull you over such as speeding.

You guys really need to rethink some of your posts before you get your panties in a bind over a simple comment. I'm on your side and I completely agree. All I was stating is that it's so much easier to let them know up front that you have a HCP. I do it out of respect and courtesy.

But by all means keep on trying to rebel against something that isn't there.

One more thing for Grace.. Do you check your headlights every night before you go out? And are you suggesting that the officer should either be lenient or NOT be lenient based on whether or not I answer completely unrelated questions to the traffic stop?

That's not what we are supposed to do in American law as far as I know.. Sorry... So you're basically saying that because I didn't answer questions, that gives him a right to give me a ticket for something everyone knows is almost impossible to predict? Like said before.. I know that most people would have been let off with a warning, & that of course is part of the problem here. But the real problem I brought up, which Robert has done his best (as usual) to distort, is that the officer accused me of "Not showing him my permit, in violation of the law". He was as wrong as wrong can be..

Don't either of you have any concern that Police officers are patrolling without knowing the law on handgun carry? Am I in the freakin twilight zone here? I feel like I posted this thread on the Huffington Post, or The Daily Kos message board right now..

1. Dan, you should verify your equipment is working. (Having had my lights fail on a dark rural road, I know the importance first hand.) You may have serviced them recently, so perhaps it's a loose connection or something easily remedied. Anyway, that's for you to prove in your day in court. So, the stop was justified.

2. Informing the officer that one is armed may be courteous, but he is correct that it is not required. (See 5th Amendment right against self-incrimination.) These officers must not be permitted to berate anyone who does not bend over backwards for them. I agree with Dan that the officers should operate under the presumption that anyone and everyone could be armed.

3. The officers do have the authority to disarm pursuant to 39-17-1351, but safety is paramount. If the weapon is unfamiliar to the officer, the best strategy may be mutual agreement. (I won't touch my weapon if you don't touch yours.)

3. I don't like transplants either. If they don't like the populous being armed, they can go back to where they came from.

4. I hope your situation can be resolved.

Robert, you did in fact insinuate that I did not cooperate, but out of respect for John Harris, & David Lewis, who I agreed with to keep discussions here as civil as possible, I'm not going to waste time responding to you all the time. I do unfortunately have to correct your mis-characterizations of me & the truth. The whole thing started because I didn't feel like saying where I was coming from, period..

I never really had a problem with the stop for the headlight being out, & until he started with the leading questions, I was thankful he stopped me to let me know..

Again, the whole thing went south when the officer began his "War on Drugs" Nazi routine with the leading questions that I don't have to answer, & escalated when he asserted that I was supposed to tell him I had a carry permit, & show him that up front.. When I politely corrected him, he & his partner still took offense, because their egos were hurt. They IMMEDIATELY moved to disarm me at that point. Why then? I'll tell you why, because if you disagree with them, you are automatically a criminal in the minds of either fascist, or poorly trained cops! Those things are both the baby steps that have incrementally led to incidents like this in some of our fascist Northern states:

Yes, Damn those twelve year old girl desk doodlers of the world, & all of us HCP thugs that drive around without working headlights!
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,584 ... latestnews


Funny thing is, I saw a Police car from this particular town with brake lights out a couple of weeks ago.. How much do you want to bet me it's still driving around that way? Who polices the police? Well, I'll tell you this. If I see that car again like that, I'm calling the mayor of said town, & reminding him what one of his robo-cops did when I had a light out..

Oh, & your assertion that I should have to educate cops on the law is absurd.. I did however end up doing that for 45 minutes at their station after the fact.. Fortunately I was talking to two experienced sergeants who knew that I was wronged, & looked everything I said up to make sure we were on the same page. They concluded that I should NOT have been treated this way..

I keep bringing up the "headlight thing" in part because you went to some lengths above (for example, your comments regarding how often people do or don't check their headlight functions) which seemed to imply that the officer shouldn't have pulled you over in the first place.

Moving on, it seems you are not understanding me - the word "wrong" would generally imply that you did something "against" a rule or standard of some kind; that is NOT what I said or wished to imply.

While you may have been/probably were within your rights to do/act as you did; I'm saying that I believe you didn't handled the incident well...that there were better ways to handle that situation and similar situations...that the way you handled it, in my opinion, benefited no one; least of all those who carry firearms.

Ok, I'll say it. RobertNashville = Antagonist.

I'm always down for differing opinions, but holy crap. It's getting old.

I'm starting to notice a very huge tendency to always want to water down any point being made by just about anyone. I believe that it's mainly for the sake of arguing alone.

I think the point is being overshadowed by this senseless bickering.

I also have been subjected to pointless police "routine". I drive a 1989 Mustang GT, grey and beat up as all hell. I was returning to Clarksville from the Nashville Airport with two friends from out of state. At mile marker 17 on 24 West, I was pulled over, going the speed limit precisely because everyone knows about mile marker 17 (local, sheriff and state police trap zone). So, I pulled over and was soon surrounded by 5 cruisers and one SWAT style SUV. After they surrounded my car, they insisted that we all get out slowly, and patted us down then took our ID's from our wallets. I asked the Officer that appeared to be in charge why I was pulled over. He plainly stated that my car, just happens to be the car of choice for drug runners, and mine fit the description perfect. I said "Are you serious?" Before he answered, they figured out my two passengers were from out of state so they split us all up and made us do the sit down thing and opened up my car and started going through luggage and everything else in the car. After 5 minutes of finding nothing they saw my military ID in the center console, they all mumbled and let us get up and acted like nothing happened saying "Take care" and hopped in their cruisers and took off. I felt as if I had just been robbed, spit on and laughed at. The point of this thread is simple. The age of innocent until proven guilty is gone. You're a criminal from the moment of eye contact. It has become the unspoken discrimination.

Now, before RobertNashville can tear this post up, I'll do it myself.

Yes Robert, I'll not purchase a Mustang from now on, because it fits the typical bad guy description. I'll also exit prior to mile marker 17 from now on, because how dare I drive on the Interstate, past a known area where cops like to hide, in a Mustang of all types of cars. Plus, I'll never have out of state company anymore, because "If the ain't from here (spit), they must be bad guys".

Now that I have assumed all responsibility for the actions of the police, so that I might not get in trouble for minding my own business....what could possibly go wrong in the future? Right?

Back when I was relegated to living in TX due to the extremely high interest rates and cessation of construction opportunities as a result of the Carter Administration’s policies, my son and I would make the trip back to Tennessee to deer hunt each year, on land that I owned. We paid the high dollar “Out of State” fees for our license, which we had in our possession at the time of this incident.

1990,just north of Memphis proper, I was pulled over on I-40. I was not speeding; the lights on the trailer were functioning correctly, the load tarped down with nothing flapping in the breeze, deer stands clearly visible in the bed of the pick up. Upon being stopped, my son and I were separated, and the crowd began to gather. Asked if I had weapons, I answered in the affirmative, listing the two shotguns, four rifles and two pistols in my possession. All but my carry piece were locked in hard cases, unloaded, with ammunition separate from them, the carry piece was in the “live well” of the cab, valid TX carry permit given to the first officer. To the best of my ability to remember, the bulk of the attentees were Shelby County Sheriff department employees.

One would have thought that they had succeeded in stopping a Sandanista supply caravan from the attention that was now heaped on us. By the time the stop, which lasted for over two hours was completed, there were four black Suburbans, a “Reaction Team” commander vehicle, two K-9 unit squad cars and a couple of vehicles that I never did ascertain who they belonged to. My “stuff” was scattered for over 40 yards along side the interstate, all my weapon cases opened and left in the drizzle that was occurring. They let the dogs go through and over all our clothes and personal gear, which was left in the rain as well.

Once they decided there was nothing to hold us for, they simply handed my documents back and proceeded to walk away. I asked if they were going to help re-load all the stands, coolers and duffels that were scattered down the side of the road in the rain, and they just laughed and drove away.

The only truthful statement made by any of the participants was in response to my question of why I was being stopped in the first place, to which one of them responded “TX tags”.