New to AR-15's

[bmike27]

Ok, I need some help , I'm interested in buying an AR-15 , unlike handguns this is a whole new area for me.

Who makes the best AR-15 , I'm too concerned with the price and expect to spend over $1000.00 . What would you buy and why?

[johnharris]

Mike, I am in the same boat. I have an interest but very little depth of experience with them since I mainly shoot pistol and bolt action. However, just give it a moment and there will be several posts and probably questions narrowing the issues. We have a couple on here who are qualified experts in the AR15 platform. Mike Sanders, for one, did a TFA Chapter session as a mini version of an all day seminar/class that he does on the AR15.

[SomeGuy]

I am far from an expert.

I have a Rock River Arms. You will be satisfied with probably any AR from a reputable manufacturer. I note, Colt ARs are not interchangeable with other brands. The push pins are different.

One thing we all need to know, how much use is this for? What is the purpose of this rifle?

To answer your question, if I was buying right now, it would be an Anvil Arms lower (not sure what customizations) and probably CMMG for the upper.

[gotigers]

Someguy is correct about Colts. They are great guns, but parts are not interchangable with other guns in the AR market.

There are many custom builders out like, Daniel Defense. Very expensive, but very good quality. To many to list.
Sig, Smith&Wesson, Bushmaster, Rock River Arms, DPMS are all very popular with great reputations and are $900-1500.
Other popular and good quality guns under $1000 are: Stag, Olympic, Doublestar, also to many to list.

there are several different configurations: AR pistols, M4, M16, A2, A3, Etc. Target, police, hunting, etc.

Now there are a few different rounds being used. 5.56 Nato(.223 rem), 6.8 spec and a few others.

To confuse the issue even more, many manufacturers are selling Piston driven ARs vs the original operation.

I would suggest doing some research here: AR15.com.

[redbarron06]

I am not exactally sure where you two are located in Tennessee but if you are near the Nashville area I would reccomend a trip to Guns and Leather in Greenbriar, just south of Springfield on Hwy 431. They seem to consistantly have the widest variety of AR-15 rifles and very reasonable prices.

[C. Richard Archie]

[bmike27]

Well my purchase will primarly be for personal defense, and Dennis Williams owner of Guns and Leather is a Friend of mine . It's hard to not go in there and get distracted there are too many guns that would distract me from my goal of more info and I do not like taking up the staff's time, they are usually very busy . My first objective is to get as much information from this great group of people , narrow my choices down then sit down with Dennis when I'm ready to purchase. I love my Colt Defender however the price on a Colt AR could well exceed two thousand dollars, that's not acceptable atleast not till after next year's elections , I will be a candidate for a county wide position have to save everywhere I can within reason ..

[C. Richard Archie]

Can not beat a Rock River, but, if you shop around, you can do Colt for less than $2K. I just located a Colt H-Bar off the classified section of another forum for a decent price. It was a prime example, probably had less than 200 rounds down the pipe, for less than $1,500.00, shipping and transfer fee included. Patience and looking around pay off. Of course, buying the parts and building up your own can be a substantial savings. Across the board, lowers are lowers, the barrel is the key to accuracy, (heart of the system) that and a top quality bolt carrier + bolt, and a good trigger. A person can put a lot of dollars into bells and whistles for the platform, but mostly they are for the user, not that important to accuracy. I have upgraded my original H-Bar with a free float handguard, anti rotation pins, trigger upgrade and an upper receiver to accept a low profile scope. I can shoot 1" groups at a 100 yards, my son could do the same with it in it's original configuration as a stock weapon. Youth and talent.

A standard lower parts group will fill the bill, and you can send the trigger group to Bill Springfield, and it will come back worth many times over the original price (wspringfield@comcast.net) he is magic on the AR fire control group, for a little money. The AR is the ultimate DIY switch barrel platform, get the basic, add the nice to haves over a time period. Get a .204 barrel, new rifle.

Warning, Black Rifle Disease is hard to get rid of, and like the old Lays Potato Chip commercial, one is never enough.

[TacticaLogic]

Hi folks!

I have been watching and experiencing AR-15/M-16 quality for some time now... About 30 years. Here is my opinion:

In the early years, when only Colt and Bushmaster were in the game, Bushmaster was on top. Armalite jumped in but suffered quality control issues. A couple of brothers that worked for Armalite, advised them on what needed to be done, and that if they did so Armalite would "own" the AR market on both the civilian and agency fronts. Those two brothers were ignored... Armalite is still an "also ran". But the two brothers? Well, they started a company called Rock River Arms... Every rifle or carbine assembled by Rock River Arms is built start to finish by one member of their team of builders. This means no assembly line mentality... Every thing, from the driving of tiniest steel roll pin that holds the gas tube in place in the front site frame all the way through the test firing, is done by the same person. The serial number is recorded, along with the name of the builder. If there is a problem with the weapon when it leaves the factory, there is only one person responsible - and they know they will be called out on the issue. I own several Rock Rivers Arms AR variants and would put them up against anything out there. Bushmaster, in my opinion, started to "ride their reputation" years ago, and started charging more than the AR was worth... They did so by selling them cheap to places like Blackwater, with Blackwater agreeing to let Bushmaster use their name in their advertising. If created an "OH! They must be good if the Blackwater name is associated with them!" And the Bushmasters do work well - just not enough to justify the price on them.

Now... As of late, Sabre Defence (yes, that is how the Brits spell "defence", with the Anglican version - just like "tire" is spelled "tyre") here in Nashville, Tennessee has burst onto the scene. We use their weapons in our classes as a TacticaLogic, Inc. supplied weapon for those students that were unable (due to airline or customs issues) to bring their own. I will tell you first hand that their quality is second to none... Are they better than Rock River? I wouldn't say that, yet... Time will tell. But I wouldn't have a problem with counting on one at all if my life depended on it.

A couple of other issues that I want to cover: DON'T FEED YOUR AR-15 ANY STEEL CASED, LACQUER COATED, "I GOT IT CHEAP AT THE GUNSHOW JUST FOR PLINKING" AMMO. The AR system is not designed for this stuff and it will bring on heartaches at least, and catastrophe at worst.

I was asked this weekend about gas piston uppers for AR's... Why spend the extra money over and above the standard AR to get the gas piston when, if you want a gas-piston 5.56x45mm NATO rifle, you can buy an AR-180, a Galil, an HK-93 (if you're just LOADED with $), etc.? Why fix what is not broken? The AR-15/M-16 direct impingment gas system works fine if you use quality ammo and properly maintain your weapon.

If you want some specific questions answered, I be glad to give my opinion based on my experiences... Just post them here. I'll answer as time allows.

Regards,
Mike Sanders

[C. Richard Archie]

Excellent post by Tacticalogic, sound advise.

[SomeGuy]

Yes, stay away from Steel cased ammo, especially Wolf. Leave that for me to safely dispose of.

Being serious, you will have to clean it more, and it will lose reliability, but for plinking Wolf or other similar is fine. I would not use it for real self-defense. Lots of people disagree, but for plinking, I have no qualms with it. With the money I have saved by using Wolf instead of something brass/better, I could buy another new AR.

Earlier someone mentioned HBAR (Heavy Barrel). Frankly, if I had it to do again I wouldn't bother with it. Just added weight to me.

[C. Richard Archie]

[TacticaLogic]

Not to try and rake anyone over the coals here... But I would advise against shooting the lacquer coated steel cased ammo at any time.

According to the manufacturers that I deal with on a regular basis, and according to the U.S. Army's Aberdeen Proving Ground, the use of lacquer coated steel cased ammo will cause exceedingly high chamber pressures due to the fact that the heat and pressure of the fired round causes the lacquer coating to leave a residue in the chamber (chrome lined or not). That residue continues to build until one of two things happens: 1) the rifle/carbine will finally suffer a catastrophic explosion (aka KA-BOOM!) due to the excessive pressures within the chamber because the empty case is not being extracted quickly enough and the pressure rising beyond the limits for which the system was designed. (This situation is one I have witnessed three times in the past 7 years, so YES is does happen.); OR 2) the pressure in the chamber rises so quickly that the case head is ripped off of the rest of the cartridge, requiring a broken case extractor in order to get the rest of the cartridge removed from the chamber. (I've seen this more times than I care to keep count. Ever wonder why the "broken cartridge extractors" for 5.56 NATO started showing up in the market at about the same time as we started seeing huge imports of 5.56 NATO steel cased ammo being imported from China and Russia? Well, now you know.) These two things are the worst case scenarios... Other problems, such as failure to extract completely (stovepipe jams) or partial extactions causing double feeds may also result. Stuff like that can at best make your day at the range a pain in the butt, and at worst make your day at the range turn into a run to the Emergency Room.

We have departments that send their officers to our classes with this stuff... The departments are trying to save money, and that is understandable - but not at the cost of personal safety. Sometimes we have no choice but to let them fire what they brought - and we have trouble with it by the time we are three hours into the range course. Not all of the steel cased stuff comes from China or Russia. I have even had officers bring in steel cased ammo from Hornady - that happened last December and was a new one to me. When I asked about how they ended up with the steel cased stuff, they replied: "We told them to get us some good quality ammo from Hornady, expecting to get Hornady TAP ammo. They bought Hornady, but bought the cheapest Hornady they saw on the list. This is what we got (pointing to the steel cased Hornady.)"

So, coming from someone that makes their living on the firing range, and that sees hundreds of thousands of rounds fired per year, IF IT WERE ME, I WOULD LEAVE THE STEEL CASED AMMO TO THE AK-VARIANTS, AND STICK WITH BRASS CASED AMMO FOR THE AR SYSTEMS. The only proper way to get the residue left from lacquer coated rounds cleaned from the chamber is to use an extemely strong solution containing acetone or a like substance (Hoppe's #9, or even Tetra's extreme solvent is not enough - the ammonia that cuts brass and powder fowling will not cut the lacquer residue), along with a good chamber brush and lots of time and elbow grease. Most people don't take that kind of time or effort in the cleaning of a weapon. Without the hard effort, the residue may be thinned, but not entirely romoved. That just delays a problem that is sure to come.

Look at it this way... Would you pay $1000-$2000 for a fine AKC registered dog with really good papers showing a champion bloodline, and then feed it table scraps and Ol' Roy dog food from Wal-Mart? No... You would feed it good quality food like Pro-Plan, Hills, Iam's or Purina One along with whatever else your vet tells you to feed it when you seem him on a regular basis. That is, if you care about your expensive dog's health... It is the same way with the AR-15/M-16 weapons system. Why buy a pure bred, finely machined weapon and then feed it cheap, unhealthy ammo?

Well then, why do Wolf and the others make steel cased 5.56 ammo? BECAUSE THEY KNOW SOMEONE WILL BUY IT IN ORDER TO SAVE MONEY. Russia fully understands capitalism now, and they will manufacture and sell whatever they can (ammo, night vision gear, etc. - all from what used to be government owned factories) to strengthen their economy. Do they care about the end-user? No. What happens if your weapon blows up using their ammo? You can't touch them, as far as any liability goes. But if you have a problem with Federal, Winchester, Remington, Hornady TAP, or any other quality U.S. made ammunition, you have some recourse. How much I do not know - but they know that they have to produce quality or they can loose their butt in a civil suit.

Just my 2 cents worth... I'll leave it at that.

Regards,
Mike

PS: I have used 5.56NATO brass cased ammo from S&B (Czech Republic.) It is a fine military spec ammo in a brass case, and will work well in your AR - but it doesn't smell good like U.S. ammo when fired! PEEUUU!!

[SomeGuy]

Tactical and I disagree.

The money I have saved - all ready - by using steel is enough to buy another AR. (To use TL's example, the scraps are enough cheaper than the high priced foods that I can buy a second pedigree dog). I won't defend the quality of steel ammo, the few times I have had an AR problem have been with steel ammo (generally stuck cases, easily fixed and at the range worth it for the $$$ saved). My experience has been very different than TL's on cleaning. While the stuff IS harder, it is not much harder to clean out.

[C. Richard Archie]

For me, the question of steel case vs. brass is not an issue. I have always reloaded, and the steel stuff does not allow for that. I have one lot of .223's that have 14 reloads going on them now, (have lost a few to splits, but I inspect with every re-use, and out of the 1K I stared with, I still have over 950 that are good) that just makes too much sense for me to buy ready rolled, except to procure cases. Doing my own, I am in complete control of the quality, and I trust myself more than I do the next person anyway.

[price g]

The first Bushmaster I bought new has had 20k plus rounds of Wolf steel cased ammo since new. It still is on the orignal bolt, firing pin and barrel, and will still shoot sub moa. It gets serviced, along with my other AR's on a regular bases and still goes to the matches with me as a back up. Maybe this rifle is special and enjoys crap ammo, or just maybe the ammo I use isn't the crap people would like us to belive it is. Go figure.........

[tnroadrunner]

I shoot lefty so I bought a left handed Stag Arms for under a thousand. It's a great rifle.

[wlhawk]

I recently purchased an AR from DPMS. The Operator's Manual warns that lacquer coated steel cased ammunition should not be used. The coating heats up. turns to a soft varnish, which upon cooling, becomes difficult to remove. This has the effect of creating an undersized chamber.

[Usagi]

For those claiming steel cased laquer-coated ammo is wrong because the coating "melts" or some other such nonsense, I offer the following:

It has been proven time and time again and posted in multiple locations that the coating on the steel ammo does not come off and leave a residue in the chamber of the rifle. It's done everything but Mythbusters and been proven to not be the case.

Here's a link to Box O Truth and the results:

What steel ammo does to a chamber is get it dirtier and quicker, because the steel does not expand the same as brass and more carbon is blown back into the chamber.

Like SomeGuy said, it is a might bit harder to clean out, but not much.

[redbarron06]

What ever rifle you get make sure that the barrel is stamped for 5.56 and not 223. The 556 NATO is loaded a little hotter and has higher chamber pressures than regular 223 REM. An AR chambered in 556 will shoot either ammo but one chambered in 223 may fail if you are trying to shoot 556 in it. One rifle that I know off hand that is chambered in 223 is the S&W M&P15 "I" model. As far as I know it is the only AR rifle S&W sell in 223 according to thier site and catalog. My MILs hubby got one on a spur of the moment and the shop sold him a half a case of Federal XM193 (NATO Spec 556) and both Federal and S&W said do not shoot it in that rifle. I had to show him emails from both companies before he believed me because the guy in the gun store told him it was OK. I actually showed him the difference when I swapped him for a case of 223.