having problems

[marine77]

This is a general question for those out there that might know a little more than i or maybe even more. I went out to get
my AR-15 sighted in, it has the flattop, and put on the sights like the regular M-16 since i have been used to that for 15
years. But i have gone and shot too many rounds and cannot get the blasted thing sighted. I have tried everything that i
could think of breath control, sight picture, sight alignment, set everything to a zero status and my shots are almost high
and to the left. I will get the shots closer to center and then zoom off they go again to god knows where. I have pulled my
sights left, right, up and down. And just cannot get them where i want them. And this is about 75 yards (more or less) with
a pistol target. Am i wanting too much or not? I don't think so, i remember i could used to hit right in center of the (big)
target at 300 yards all day long. Just what might i be doing wrong, or am i wasting time with this sight and need to possibly
get an optical to go on top?

[SomeGuy]

Start fresh, but start at 25 yards.

Are you using good ammo, and is it the right grains for the barrel twist?

[marine77]

I forget what it is, i looked at sportmansguide where i got it, it dosen't have it listed anymore. It might be 55 gr. It was ammo that was refused by the military because the muzzle velocity wasn't quite up to par. I don't know if it's enough for the
rifle twist on my weapon or not, don't know about such things. Will try your suggestion first and see what happens, thanks.

[marine77]

Wrong!!! Just found out it's M855 Ball 62 grain, gilded metal jacketed, lead alloy core bullet with a steel penetrator. It says not to use an m-16A1 because the twist is not sufficient to stabilize the round. wow, i didn't know.

[SomeGuy]

I would avoid using M855 for targeting. I read that the steel penetrator was not always placed in the right spot in a uniform manner, making it slightly less accurate than other rounds.

Try M193. As an aside what twist is the barrel of your rifle? If 1 in 9, or 1 in 8, it should handle the 62 grain M855 OK. The problem is that early M16s were 1 in 12, which is insufficient. Newer ARs and M4 models tend towards 1 in 7, which is too fast for the M193.

A lot depends on the use, hunting or home defense?

[marine77]

My weapon has a 1-in-7 twist, so i guess that would leave out M193. I may just go with wolf again, i bought 40 rounds of that when i bought my ar, so may go with that again, seemed to do pretty good if i remember correctly.

[David Lewis]

At the risk of stating the obviouw, with a 1:7 twist, your rifle will do better with heavier bullet weights, such as the 62 grain.
However, it still should shoot the 55 grain bullets well enough to get sighted in properly.

Something else to consider, however: do you wear corrective lenses? If so, they could be contributing to your problem.
I'm nearsighted, and wear glasses. A few years ago, I switched lenses to the new high-refractive index plastic, which
was a tremendous weight savings, and much more comfortable. However, the lenses have a "sweet spot" in the middle,
where everything is OK...closer to the edge, the light passing through the lenses is bent more dramatically.

When firing prone, this caused me to have to adjust my sights a ridiculous amount just to stay on the target. Then,
when I changed positions, the sights were completely screwed up because my head position changed enough so
that I was looking through a different part of the lens, & the focus was different.

Fortunately, my optician is a shooter, was familiar with the problem, & able to offer a solution.

YMMV

David

[jarhead]

As stated above, Regardless of the twist and/or weight of the bullett, you should still be able to shoot decent groups at 100 yards. Mechanical zero your rifle and start at 25 yards. just go back to what you know from your time at the Rifle Range there Leatherneck.
Sight alignment/sight picture
stock/cheek weld
BRASS -Breathe, Relax, Aim, Steady. Squeeze

You should be able to bust a paper plate at 100 yards with ease unless you have a defective barrel/weapon.

[TacticaLogic]

A few of questions...

First, what is the brand of the rifle/carbine? Second, did the carry handle rear sight which you have attached to it come with the rifle/carbine or did you purchase it separately? Third, what type of groups (in size/inches) do you usually shoot with a weapon with which you are completely familiar and comfortable, at 25 meters?

All of these questions are valid... I have seen some very expensive, well known brand carbines leave the factory within the past 6 months that suffered problems with the rear sight assembly regarding maintaining zero. On one particular rifle, after 50 rounds, the group was still wandering around in a 6 inch circle at 25 meters with iron sights... We put the EOTech on the weapon and had it zeroed in 9 shots, with it shooting 1 hole groups at 25 meters for the following 9 shots. We contacted the factory and found out that they had a batch of bad carry handle sights that had gotten out of the factory.

If the carry handle was an aftermarket $25 special, you have to remember that you often get just what you pay for... I have seen carry handles that, side by side, look just as good as anything coming out of Rock River, Bushmaster (or at least when they don't have a batch get out that shouldn't, such as referenced above), or Sabre. They will appear to be locked down well and have no play in them at all - but under recoil, they will move and thus change the zero.

The third question is not one for you to answer here on the forum, but just for you to ask yourself... I don't know you at all (as far as I am aware), and I wouldn't even pretend to suggest anything about your shooting ability, positive or negative. You could be Alvin York reincarnated for all I know! It is just important that we all understand that we shouldn't expect a rifle to make a difference in our marksmanship ability. The bullets go where we point them.

At 25 meters, in a 1:7 barrel, either of the 55 grain or 62 grain bullets should be printing 1 hole groups for you (barring weather, eyesight, or other outside factors) if you sandbag the weapon and take your time. The old 1:12 twist will not always stabilize the 62 grain bullet, even at that distance. (I've seen them keyhole many times.)

If the barrel is not new, it could be warped from someone using the old NRA "braced with sling" position such as what is seen in the CMP matches. It wasn't uncommon for barrels to warp to the left (for right-handed shooters) because guys used to heat up the barrels on full auto while using the sling position.

Another possibility even with a new barrel (we've also seen this many times) is when someone just has to take off the flash hider to see what is underneath. They take it off, and then over-torque the barrel when they put it back on. This will warp a barrel just like the previous scenario. It was worse in the old days with the flash hiders using the split washers or peel washers. Folks just kept cranking on that flash hider in order to get the solid portion of it down at the bottom (called timing the flash hider, so that no dust would be kicked up when firing from prone and thus give away your position.) Now the factories use a crush washer that eliminates the need for all of that over-torquing of the flash hider.

About that Wolf ammo... Please, please, please (and this is meant for everyone reading this) do not shoot any brand of steel cased, lacquer coated ammunition through any AR-15/M-16 weapons system. That lacquer coating melts and flakes under the intense pressures generated inside the chamber of the weapon. It starts to build up, decreasing the actual chamber size of the weapon. This, in turn, increases the pressures contained within the chamber, and at the same time makes extraction harder. Sooner or later, one of several things will happen: a) the case head rips off (leaving the rest of the case in the chamber) causing either a catastrophic malfunction in which the next round will not chamber or (even worse) the round chambers enough so that the weapon fires and suffers an explosion when the hammer drops on the round; b) the complete fired case sticks in the chamber and the extractor is broken, in which case you have to replace the extractor and use an assembled cleaning rod to get the fired cartridge out of the chamber; c) the round only partially chambers, leaving the bolt carrier still partially in the buffer tube (you can't disassemble the weapon that way, it won't open no matter what position the take-down pin is in). In this case, you are stuck trying to drive a live round back out of the chamber with the cleaning rod down the muzzle, while the base of the round is firmly seated in the front of the bolt - the problem is that the AR-15/M-16 weapons system has no firing pin return spring (it just floats) and every blow to the front of the live cartridge causes and inertial blow of the firing pin to the primer of the live cartridge. (How is that for a "hairy situation"?) So, it is just better all the way around to use brassed cased ammunition in these rifles/carbines. The old AK's, SKS's, and RPD's were designed to take the steel cased stuff - but not the AR's. BTW - Not all lacquer cased ammo comes out of Russia or China... I saw some on the range this past Friday that was by HORNADY! HORNADY headstamp and everything... One police department had bought it for their officers to use in our AR-15/M-16 Operator's course. If you get a rifle though which someone had been running the lacquer coated ammo, get several chamber cleaning brushes (phos-bronze) and some lacquer thinner. With the rifle/carbine completely disassembled (and no ammo anywhere in the room) clean the chamber thoroughly with the chamber brushes and thinner until you can see a bare metal/chrome surface in the chamber using a good bore-scope. It makes a mess, so don't do it on the kitchen table or anywhere that will put you in the dog house.

Please let us know what you find out or discover regarding your situation. We all learn that way.

Regards,
Mike

[TacticaLogic]

Oh... BTW... The 1:7 rate will stabilize the M193 round with no issues. The problem that has been discovered is that the 1:7 barrels will (over the course of several thousand rounds) burn out "prematurely" when compared to the same number of rounds being fired through the 1:12 barrel. For the average shooter, it would not be an issue. If you do shoot a couple of thousand rounds per year, it is something you would need to keep in mind.

Regards,
Mike

[johnharris]

Mike, that was an excellent discussion of potential accuracy problems. Thanks!

[TacticaLogic]

Hi John... Thanks.

What was that old line from the comedian that dressed as a "gum-shoe detective" all those years ago? I believe it was something along the line of "It's my job - it's what I do..."

Diagnosing accuracy and function problems gets easier over time... When it comes to AR's and accuracy, it is almost always (after having eliminated an operator error or bad ammo problem) a rear sight problem or a bent barrel problem. Rear sight - you remove and replace it. Barrel problem? Well, if bent, they can actually be heated with a torch and corrected... The method is actually contained in the military armorer's manual. I have done it... It turns into a "heat, bend, cool, test fire" job with a lot of "repeat until it shoots straight" work. But the trial and error approach is such a pain that I would rather just replace the barrel in the upper receiver. The former method usually takes several days, while the latter can be completed in less than half a day. My time is too valuable to spend 3-4 days on barrel bending...

If I don't talk to you before then, HAVE A MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

Mike

[marine77]

David: Yes, i wear corretive lenses and that could be a possible problem, i have been swearing about my last glasses i wear i'm going to get a new pair this next year from my old eyedoctor. I have another pair that work better (i believe) and going to try them next time i go out.

Jarhead: i did see one problem i had, cheek weld, i noticed it, and hopefully i've worked on it.

Mike: My AR is a dpms. I had a flattop so had to buy a carrying handle/sight for it. I was familiar with the setup and hoped it would serve me well. I was wondering about if it might be jarred off by shooting myself. I usually shoot about a handsbreadth or a little bigger groups (been a long time since i've shot so much, going to rectify that though). The last few times i have gone out to shoot it has been cloudy and rainy, i like it that way because usually a lot of people like to get in the dry leaving me alone to not have to worry about anybody else.....sweet. Now about the sling, i've been using one for the m1 on my ar and i do the old NRA wrap around the arm to steady me. But i didn't know that could possibly warp a barrel, what other kind of syle could anybody suggest? I don't use a sandbag, guess that would be something to do. I'm not stupid enough to take of the flash suppressor (the name i remember it by). If it's not broke, don't fix it. Well i only shot the forty rounds of wolf, so i guess it's goodbye for that, just find another brand with brassed case ammo. If you would, tell me more about 1:7 twists burning out, why, what's the cause and all that, just don't get too technical.

My plan is to first go out and start closer, then work my way out, then if that dosen't meet my approval, probably get new sights. I don't know that EOTech sight (not surprising ), what would be your recommendation for a good sight?
My wife would really kill me now spending so much money, she gets on the phone and tells people, "he's got a new hobby, just wish it wasn't so expensive,lol.

[TacticaLogic]

marine 77,

I would try a different carry handle to see if that solves the problem... The DPMS builds a pretty tight weapon - sometimes so tight that Mil-spec parts won't fit. They tend to keep the tolerances so tight that I've had actual DPMS supplied parts that wouldn't fit - hammer/trigger pins, firing pin retaining pins, just little stuff like that. Not a big deal under peace time conditions... You just keep going to the parts bin until you find the pin that works.

Nothing wrong with using the sling in the manner you are describing - it's just that some fellows used to do that while on full auto and they would warp the barrels due to the sideways torque when the barrels got too hot.

The 1:7 rate was found to work well for the 62 grain ammo when it first came out... The problem was that no one decided to check out the 55 grain ammo effects on the 1:7 rate. While the 55 grain ammo is stabilized, the light weight bullet is being pushed so hard by the powder behind it that it is wanting to "push" through the rifling instead of riding the lands and grooves. Kind of like "understeer" in NASCAR - the rifling is trying to turn the bullet, but the bullet is so light and fast that it wants to ignore what the rifling is trying to do to it. The 1:9 rate was a compromise that worked well for the 62 grain ammo and the 55 grain ammo as well. The 55 grain ammo was originally stabilized with a 1:12 twist in the first AR-15s/M-16s... So you can see that it doesn't take a whole lot to stabilize the lighter bullet.

Hope this helps,
Mike

[TacticaLogic]

Marine 77,

I failed to answer your last question re: possible optic sights.

Well, on this topic everyone has an opinion - and you know what they say about opinions. Here is mine and the reasoning behind it:

My M4 is set up with an optic sight and a back-up iron sight. The optic sight I use is a Trijicon Reflex II with the 12.5 MOA amber triangle (not a chevron, but an actual triangle). The reasons I chose this optic over others are as follows: 1.) no batteries required - you never can tell when you may not be able to readily lay hands on batteries; 2.) gathers ambient light to power the reticle, therefore the reticle automatically adjusts its brightness to conditions; 3.) the amber triangle more readily attracts the human eye over the red dot or red 65 MOA circle with a 3 MOA dot as if found on the Aimpoint or the EOTech - not just my opinion, but scientifically proven. This is important in high stress situations where you may have to fire, scan, identify target, and fire again, since your eyes will have a lot of workload to carry out; 4.) in CQB situations, you just put the big 12.5 MOA triangle on the bad guy and pull the trigger - he's done; 5.) in distance shooting, the point of impact at 100 yards is the exact top point of the triangle - I can regularly shoot <1 MOA groups with the weapon when sandbagged; 6.) battle sight zero at 300 yards is a piece of cake, since the weapon shoot <1 MOA groups at 100 yards; 7.) if for some reason I am shooting in darkness, the sight is lit with a self contained tritium lamp; 8.) if the tritium lamp goes down, I can bring the sight back online by using an "itty bitty light stick" and a piece of 120mph OD green tape - you just active the light stick and use a small patch of tape to tape it to the front of the sight where it normally gathers daylight. It is invisible from the outside due to the tape, but the reticle is well lit; 9.) If I am using the sight in a nighttime "dynamic entry" situation where my tactical light on the handguard is in use, there is no problem with reticle washout (loosing the reticle due to an extremely well-lit target area) since I can rotate the polarized filter and add contrast to the back ground - the reticle shows up fine. So there are all of the "pro's" of the Reflex II. What about the "con's"? Well, let's see... 1.) It isn't the high-tech "heads-up" display found on the F-14 Tomcat like the EOTech, so you loose the "Top Gun" fighter jock ability to sing the Righteous Brother's "Lost that Lovin' Feeling" to girls in bars; 2.) It hasn't been on the cover of "Weapons for SWAT and Police" magazine anytime recently - "so it must not be that sexy"; 3.) It doesn't cost as much as some of the other sights, so "it must not be as good". Well, weighing those pro's and con's, you can see why I like the Reflex II. There are tricks (such as the "light stick trick" that I learned at Ft. Benning when the M4 was being tested) that you can't do with Aimpoints and EOTechs - without batteries, they are done. The Reflex II is built like a tank, and has a NSN number on it for those folks that "just have to have what the military has."

Behind the Reflex II is the back-up iron sight... The ARMS (Atlantic Research Marketing Systems) #40 is, in my opinion, the way to go regarding back-up iron sights. Tough as nails, down out of the way when using the Reflex II, and pops up when you release the little hold-down catch. Adjustable for windage, with the standard flip aperture you find on the standard A2 - you make elevation adjustments for the weapon with the front sight just like you did with the M16A1. How many people do you know that can really use the BDC on the A2 and hit accurately out to 800 with an AR-15 or M-16? For todays fight (remember, we're battle sight zeroed at 300) the BDC is practically useless anyway, so not having it on the ARMS #40 has never been an issue for me or any other operator that I've talked to. The ARMS#40 is mounted in such a way that I can "co-witness" right through the Reflex II sight, therefore it is not required to remove the Reflex II unless it is damaged to the point that the iron sights are blocked.

The front sight is the standard elevation adjustable A2 front post in the sight frame.

So there it is... Yes, the Aimpoint M-2, or M-4 or M-68 (in military nomenclature) has a red dot and can do a good job. So can the EOTech. But in my opinion, those sights are meant to help increase hits for those folks that (putting this in terms I'm sure you've heard before) otherwise would have been cooks. It is kind of like teaching someone to fly in a flight simulator... You give them something high-tech and pretty to look through and they pay more attention to what is going on. But with the Reflex II, the concept has been around since the SonTay raid in VietNam (POW camp raid to rescue our boys) and was meant to allow for better peripheral vision while providing a "reticle on target" for CQB. These weren't ordinary straight leg infantry guys going in there - they were black ops boys that already knew how to shoot and shoot well. They were looking for the extra advantage and found it in the Bindon/OEG concept that is now found in the Reflex systems. And yes, you can get the Aimpoints and EOTechs in configurations that are compatible with night vision gear - but you can do the same with the Reflex.

I have sold and installed all three of these weapons sight systems for people. But I try to make sure that they understand the differences in them before they make their choice. If someone is not going to be were batteries are a problem to get, or doing night time dynamic entries with bright tactial lights, they will have no problems with the Aimpoints or EOTechs... I'm just one to prepare for the worst and hope for the best, so I always use what I would want to have in the worst situations. That way, no adjustment on my part is required...

Sorry for the long post... Hope it is helpful to you...

Mike

[marine77]

Thanks Mike, you've been most helpful. I like what you said about the first optic, you never know when a battery will go south or any number of related problems. But the first one using ambient light, like the thought of it, and using a glow stick to make it show better under less ambient conditions sounds like a winner to me. Again, thanks Mike.