TN HCP holder Edward O'Brien rights violated

[benburke]

I think John will agree with this. While the law does not require concealment, it is advisable to do so rather than cause a scene. I'm still suprised at the lack of knowledge of even law enforcement. The off duty deputy should have explained to the management of the theater that they could not prevent him access solely for carrying a handgun, since they were not posted.

http://www.newschannel9.com/video/?vide ... 1&play=now

[TacticaLogic]

[C. Richard Archie]

The manager was incorrect in his understanding of the law, there is no restriction to conceal. Did the whole situation advance our standing with the non-gun owning public?

However, correct or not with respect to the rules of Permit Carry, the manager did have the right to ask the carrier to leave, and actually, the off duty officer was correct in his assessment, once verbally informed of the wishes of the management, and asked to leave, the carrier was guilty of criminal trespass.

And, as TactiaLogic said, posting of the venue will be the result.

[RobertNashville]

I believe it correct to say that, posted or not or posted properly or not, a property owner (or int this case, the property owner's representative) does have the right to demand that a person leave the premises and can make such a demand for almost any reason at all (including, I think, not wanting someone openly carrying a firearm) and that you are then legally obligated to comply...if the person doesn't comply then that person would be "trespassing" on that property (and could charged/arrested for doing so). At least, the above is my understanding based on what I've read (including what I've read here)!

That said and, perhaps more importantly, whether or not the manager was within his rights to request the person leave, why would anyone want to give their patronage to a business that is hostile to firearms and those who legally carry them?

As far as the right to carry open or concealed, while I've only had my permit for a short while, I've never carried openly and have no plans to do so...I simply see no good reason to advertise to any/everyone that I have a weapon on me. I'd rather let my body language/how I carry myself advertise to a potential threat that I'm not a victim and then, if someone chooses to try and make me a victim anyway, have the means to defend myself. That approach seems to me to be a lot more reasonable than making myself an automatic threat/target for someone wanting to do bad things.

[David Lewis]

Some comments on Open vs. Concealed Carry

(OK, let me make it clear at the outset that I am not discussing Vermont-style citizen-without-permit carry. Obviously, ‘tis a consummation devoutly to be wished!)

The definition of “concealed” in some states—some more draconian states, where concealed carry is mandated—means absolutely not seen or in evidence. You may not allow your handgun to be seen, period. This means that your concealed handgun may not “print” or be outlined through your covering garment. It means that the cover may not ride up exposing the muzzle or other parts of the gun. It means that your coat, shirt, or vest cannot be allowed to blow open in the wind, or catch on a seatbelt while exiting a car, or in any manner expose your weapon. Allowing your weapon to be seen can get you arrested for “brandishing” a firearm.

In Tennessee, the way our carry permit law is written, we may carry our handgun(s) openly or concealed. This is a good thing, and indeed, is the best possible situation. Rather than being liable to prosecution if a breeze opens your coat, or your sweater rides up exposing the grip of your gun, we’re protected by the law, since we have the option of open carry.

I am a firm believer in concealed carry, but I like knowing that a careless moment (yes, they happen to all of us) or an errant gust of wind won’t cause me to be arrested.

However, I am also firmly opposed to open carry as a matter of course, and most especially open carry “because I can”. The incident in the theatre cited above (which, as far as I can tell from what I’ve read, was not meant to “push the envelope”), and a recent one at Radnor Lake (which was), have served no good purpose for HCP holders in Tennessee. In fact, our cause has been damaged by these incidents and unfavorable publicity surrounding them.

Like many of you, I own a gun (perhaps even more than one!), and many of my friends know I own guns…but most of them have never seen any of them. Why? Because I don’t advertise the fact that they’re present. It’s a matter of comfort for most people. Many people did not grow up around guns and need a gentle introduction to the “gun culture”, rather than unexpectedly coming face to face with it in a restaurant, theatre, or WalMart.

A good friend of mine once opined that she didn’t want her children exposed to guns—they were just too dangerous, and she felt uncomfortable in their mere presence (this, despite her husband having an heirloom shotgun or two). I reminded her that I owned guns, and that they were in my home…then asked her if she’d ever seen any of them on her frequent visits there, and was she uncomfortable having her children in my home? After a few moments reflection, she replied that “No, she’d never seen a gun in my house, and that she always felt both safe and comfortable in my home.” Further, she realized that she had nothing to fear from those inanimate objects. A point was gently made, and a friend won over, rather than alienated.

I’d far rather people not know I have a weapon when out in public, than to have them pointing at me & whispering “He’s got a gun!” to their date. If I carry to protect myself and my family, why would I wish to advertise it? It’s nobody’s business but mine.

"That's my opinion; oughta be yours."

David

[tjbert47]

I've been carrying for well over 20 years. I carried daily almost from day one.
The people that know are frends that also carry. I've never found a reason to make that public and
I've never found one good reason to open carry in public.



Tom in TN

[price g]

That's the penalty we have to pay for our acts of foolishness, someone else always suffers for them---Alfred Sutro.

[ProguninTN]

I for one support open carry just as much concealed carry. I'm with Mr. O'Brien on this one. The theatre was not not properly posted, the manager was incorrect regarding the law, and I find it unprofessional for someone to claim to be LE and not present credentials.

[RobertNashville]

[Dan Lee]

[1gewehr]

I am conflicted about open carry. On the one hand, I recognize that it is unusual enough in a population taught to fear the sight of a weapon that it causes heightened anxiety. On the other hand, how do we reverse that fear when everything people are seeing on TV and in movies shows that guns=Bad? Many years ago I moved from the east coast to Texas. Initially, seeing people walking around with openly carried handguns was a bit interesting. But after a while I no more noticed it than I did the cowboy hats.

In Virginia and other states, there have been calls for more people to open carry for just this reason. In fact, at our TFA meetings here in Nashville there are several people who carry openly at Golden Corral. It has never caused more than just curiosity. Based on this, I think that if you DO decide to open carry, you are obligated to be well-mannered and polite, soft-spoken, and carry yourself as a model citizen. You will be acting as an ambassador for all gun owners in a populace taught to fear the sight of a weapon. And any excitement will prove injurious to our cause.

[RobertNashville]

[Dan Lee]

All this apologist stuff is making me nauseous.. Nobody kicks people out of Movie theater parking lots for driving a car there, but gun owners have to be extra polite at all times & even apologetic?

Do you know how many people are killed by moronic drivers every year? Nobody says a word when you drive car up to them though.. It's maddening how sheepish our society has become..

And instead of fighting back against the unfair stigma, there are actually people on this message board who are members, who are pandering to it..

[RobertNashville]

The right to bear arms does not exist in a vacuum and unlike what was suggested by the title of this thread, Mr. O’Brien’s “rights” were not violated.

Yes, Mr. O’Brien has the right to carry, open or concealed, in any location not precluded by law and/or not properly posted.

Yes, the theater should have been properly posted if they didn’t wish any firearms on the property at all.

Yes, the manager was wrong regarding the requirement that a weapon be concealed.

ALL OF WHICH IS IMMATERIAL and NONE OF WHICH IS THE ACTUAL ISSUE.

Mr. O’Brien’s right to be armed (open or concealed) ends where the property owner’s/business’ rights began.

Regardless of the law on open Vs concealed carry and proper signage, the manager had the right to ask O’Brien to 1)conceal his weapon or leave or 2) just leave. It is not a matter of the Second Amendment, it’s a matter of property rights – the right to control what does and does not happen on one’s property.

In fact, the manager had the right to request O’Brien leave – PERIOD.

Once that request was made, O’Brien was then guilty of trespassing if he did not comply and that is NOT violating his Second Amendment right to bear arms whether O’Brien had a HCP or not.

Mr. O’Brien also has a First Amendment right to free speech but were he talking in the theater during the movie the manager would have every right to ask him to either shut-up or leave and if he didn’t comply, have him arrested for trespass and that does NOT violate his First Amendment right to freedom of speech.

The above is not apologetics nor sheepish; it’s simply the law.

Moreover, the entire incident could likely have been avoided had Mr. O’Brien either not carried openly or, were he given the option to do so, gone ahead and concealed his weapon rather than forcing a confrontation.

While some want to indignantly scream about their Second Amendment right, this confrontation, which was almost certainly unnecessary and avoidable, likely only served to damage our ability to enjoy our Second Amendment right.

[Dan Lee]

[David Lewis]

[Dan Lee]

[benburke]

Dan, I agree with you. Robert, you are so wrong. Mr. Obrien's rights WERE violated, and as I stated in my original post, which started this thread, the theater could not ask him to leave SOLELY for the reason of carrying his handgun openly. The theater was wrong, the deputy was wrong, and that's as polite as I can say it.

[Dan Lee]

I have to be honest about this too. I also resent that all these "Politeness Standards" are being imposed on me just for carrying a firearm legally, while at the same time, a man named Rham Immanuel, who is in a position of High Power in the office of the President of the United States, (LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD MIND YOU) & who has the power to shape policy regarding my civil rights, can get away with calling his own constituents "f-ing retards..."

Like I said, I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.. Where right is wrong, & wrong is being called right.. I don't owe anyone any more politeness just because I have a firearm, any more than I do just because I drive a car. That is something that I do because I want to, & God asks it of me. Not because man does.. But if I have a bad day, or get upset & say something harsh, my rights still remain, AS LONG AS I HAVEN'T BROKEN THE LAW.. At least in the America I was born in.. Civil rights don't hinge on popularity, having received a Lady Byng trophy in hockey, or a Miss Congeniality award..

[RobertNashville]