School Property

[tdfirearms]

I am curious about 2 situations at an Elementary school involving--In 39-17-1309 it states, "It is not an offense under this subsection (c) for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property."

1. Does this also apply to a teacher that has a HCP that leaves their handgun in their vehicle?

2. As a parent, does the handgun have to be in the glove box? Can I have it holstered (concealed) while picking up and dropping off my kids at school as long as I don't get out of the vehicle? Is this considered "handling" the handgun?

[johnharris]

It is not clear under current statutes, case law and AG opinions, what the exception about non-student adults means.

As for the pickup/drop off exception, it does not have to be in the glove compartment.

[Tim Nunan]

Previously posted here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=3603

My wife teaches at Northeast State Community College and asked the chief of the campus police about this. He asked the TN DOS:

"If a person has a valid Tennessee Handgun carry permit is it legal to have a firearm on a public school campus (K-12 or college) if it is not handled and remains locked in a private vehicle at all times?

"I see the law states 'It is not an offense under this subsection (c) for a nonstudent adult to posses a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.'

"However does that cover a campus posted with the requied no weapons signage and does that law also protect employees of that school?"

Their response

"Dear Sir:

"Your email was forwarded to me for response.

"It is legal for a person who has a Tennessee Handgun carry permit and who is a nonstudent adult to have a firearm contained in a locked vehlcle and not handled by the adult by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property, unless the campus has otherwise posted a prohibition on the carrying of handguns pursuant to TCA 39-17-1359

"The law refers to nonstudent adults, which would include employees of schools.

"Sincerely,

"Lizabeth Hale
"Staff Attorney
"Tennessee Department of Safety"

The campus police chief stated this means that an employee can have the firearm in their vehicle unless the campus is posted properly just as any other business must do to preclude such action. My wife now leaves her firearm in the vehicle while she teaches.

[fl0at]

[tkdmavrick]

Tim,

The letter you received from TDOS refers to subsection c of the law. You seem to be ignoring subsection b of the law, which talks about "intent to go armed". Violation of subsection b is a class e felony if memory serves. You can argue that there is no intent to go armed when you leave the handgun in the car, but a person certainly has an intent when they drive into the parking lot.

I would also question the letter from TDOS. It has no legal authority, but merely an opinion of attorney on their staff. I would hold that the opinion of the AG holds more authority, but the higher opinion would be a judge's if you were so prosecuted. I surely would NOT make a bold statement at a monthly TFA meeting that it is perfectly legal to keep your handgun in your car while you are on school property. It seems to me to be a gray area.

John Harris: what is the case law on this?

Thanks,

David Morrow
Knoxville chapter

[1gewehr]

Is there an objective legal definition of "intent to go armed"? Is someone participating in a Civil War re-eneactment doing so with 'intent to go armed'? What is the method of determining 'intent'?

Personally, I'd love to see all such 'intent' language go away. It is irrelevant. Either an action is legal or not. Making a police officer try to determine 'intent' is pretty silly. If a person commits a crime (robbery, murder, rape, etc, there should be physical evidence of the crime. In such cases, 'intent to go armed is irrelevant'.
"But Judge, I was carrying that broadsword over to my homies house to show it to him. I certainly didn't do it to be 'armed' when I cut that dude's head off to steal his wallet".

[tkdmavrick]

I should have listed subsection b) Here it is:

39-17-1309. Carrying weapons on school property.

(a) As used in this section, "weapon of like kind" includes razors and razor blades, except those used solely for personal shaving, and any sharp pointed or edged instrument, except unaltered nail files and clips and tools used solely for preparation of food, instruction and maintenance.

(b) (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, with the intent to go armed, any firearm, explosive, explosive weapon, bowie knife, hawk bill knife, ice pick, dagger, slingshot, leaded cane, switchblade knife, blackjack, knuckles or any other weapon of like kind, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution.

(2) A violation of this subsection (b) is a Class E felony.

[PapaB]

Just from a common sense perspective, leaving a weapon in your vehicle, while you work, shows no "intent to go armed" IMHO. If you lock it, not just store it, before entering school property, I think you've demonstrated a lack of intent. As an example, my wifes vehicle has a console with no lock. Putting a gun in there would be problematic as you still have easy access to it. In her vehicle we use a nanovault to lock up a gun when needed. In my vehicle the console does have a lock so we use that when needed.

[Tim Nunan]

As has been noted elsewhere on these forums having a HCP is a legal defense for the charge of going "with the intent" to be armed.

[tkdmavrick]

Indeed I would say that that leaving a gun in your car while you go inside the school shows a lack of intent to go armed. However, subsection b of the law mentions just being in the parking lot as a violation, and since you had the gun with you when you drove onto the parking lot, there was the obvious intent to go armed.

I would also say that the HCP does not give an excuse to show that there was no intent to go armed. On the contrary it allows a legal excuse to specifically have intent to go armed.

Free legal advice (when one is not attorney and does not know the case law) at a monthly TFA meeting is exactly worth what others have paid for it - exactly nothing.

[Tim Nunan]

[tkdmavrick]

Tim,

I didn't make the comment at a monthly TFA meeting that it is perfectly legal to leave a gun in one's car when on school property. That is legal advice and you are the one who gave it. I am the one who cautioned against such assertion.

[Tim Nunan]

[ltcrandy]

Quick question, I probably know the answer but would like to make sure, my church meets at a school, while church is in session is it still a school?

thank you
Randy