Shelby County Meeting Aug 20th- not good

[TN_Mike]

I just want to say, that the meeting Aug. 20th that was held, other than the brief words by Sheriff Mark Luttrell, was in my opinion a total waste of time.

The speaker we had put out a lot of bad info, info I have seen completely refuted in print by such nationally recognized experts as Massad Ayoob and Clint Smith. And at one point, until corrected by a member of the audience, he was seemingly unaware that the TN permit does not require the gun to be concealed. Then, treated me with a good deal of disdain because I open carry.

I did not enjoy the meeting and feel that more harm was done than good by the speaker. I do not believe I will be attending any more TFA meetings and doubt that I will be renewing my family membership again. If this is the caliber "expert" that the TFA is trusting in, as the speech he gave is supposedly one that will be given around the state to drum up new membership, I feel they are harming our cause much more than helping.

If any of the TFA membership reads this and wishes to contact me, they may do so to follow up with me further. But this is one unhappy guy who has supported the organization in the past. I and my wife have had our permits for almost 16 years now (Alabama 1994-2005 Tennessee 2005 to present) and all of this has made me very unhappy.

[johnharris]

[TN_Mike]

John, thanks for personally replying to my post. I appreciate that you read the site and contribute even though I am sure you are a very busy guy.

I didn't expect to have every speaker be on our side. In fact, I rather like the meetings where we have someone who isn't really a cheerleader for our side. But, and even though you know Mike, he didn't know that the TN law does not require the carrier to conceal. We corrected him on this and if he actually wrote the handbook, one would think he would know this simple fact.

He said he had ridden with Memphis PD "SWAT". I can honestly tell you, the members of the TAC UNIT I have met might just give you a smack for calling their unit the "SWAT" team. I have real concerns that he might be some sort of spokes person for the TFA.

As I said, if he is as knowledgeable as he was purported to be, I find it astonishing that he did not even recognize the name Masasd Ayoob. The man is nearly a legend in the defensive firearms world, has written numerous books on the subject, runs one of the premiere self defense training institutes in the USA and is a very well known and highly regarded expert witness in self defense shooting court proceedings.

Mr. Ayoob has written several articles and papers that completely refute everything he said in his speech, other than don't talk to the police until you have consulted with your lawyer. It may be me but, whether you know him or not, I will take the advice of a nationally recognized expert over a local Memphis lawyer any day.

I was concerned about the dissemination of information that was questionable, and he lack of knowledge of the relevant law. And I have now heard from 5 other members that were at the meeting that share my concerns and feelings.

[johnharris]

He was a guest speaker. He does not speak for TFA.

Having not heard what was said, I really can't comment beyond what was said above.

[David Lewis]

[TN_Mike]

[johnharris]

Massad Ayoob would no doubt make a great guest speaker.

Once again, I think, as David pointed out, its not necessarily a problem with the TFA Chapter as much as a disagreement with a speaker who you not only disagree with in several areas - which is perfectly ok - but also a problem with "bedside manners" which is not something TFA can readily control beyond the decision of whether to invite the guest back. Again, however, that is not something TFA as an organization attempts to control but leaves pretty much to the discretion of the local chapters.

[CSS Hunley]

The speaker several times said that the speech he was giving called PHILOSOPHY AND LOGIC FOR TENNESSEE HANDGUN CARRY PERMIT HOLDERS CARRYING A WEAPON is a copyrighted speech that he and Pat McGarrity, the Shelby County TFA director, are taking on the road in order to educate the public and drum up membership. The problem arose when he stated in his speech, "Well, people, it IS a concealed carry permit". (emphasis the speaker's). That is when TN_Mike and I objected to the wording and said that we have a Handgun Carry Permit. He began to deride anyone who would carry openly as foolish. That is OK if it is his opinion, but he should not be using this wording in trying to entice people to be members of TFA.

[TN_Mike]

COMPLETELY AGREED CSS Hunley!!! Exactly the point I have been trying, and apparently doing a less than stellar job, of making!

He said several times that this speech was something he and Pat came up with to give around the state to drum up membership in the TFA. That makes the speech, and the speaker, defacto representatives of the TFA. He even evoked the name of John Harris as I recall correctly.

I do have a problem with the speaker. Not with TFA as a whole, UNLESS this guy is some kind of spokesperson for TFA. If that is the case, then I have a problem with TFA as well.

[SomeGuy]

[CSS Hunley]

Pat was at the meeting and I'm not upset with Pat or TFA. It was the speaker who was wrong in his presentation. He never conceded that he was wrong in his statement about the HCP being a CCP.

[Tim Nunan]

[Kenny Crenshaw]

I was in attendance at the referenced meeting. The point of the talk was to work out the bugs of what is intended to be a stump speech given to various audiences in the future. I have spoken to Mike Roberts on a couple of occasions prior to the meeting. I do not think he claims to be THE handgun carry authority, or THE authority on firearms case law. He just happens to be the guy selected to do the original handgun carry class years ago when it was administered by the sheriff, and has likely instructed more people on TN handgun carry than anyone else in TN. Mike has an interest in handgun carry and its proper promotion. He does have a certain level of expertise in firearms law. I am not the one to judge what that level is. He certainly ha a passion for promoting our interests. As I understand it, he is mostly retired and could easily hang out at the lake and take it easy. I am pleased that he is one of us.

Mike seems a little "professorial", maybe a little "preachy" and may be more accustomed to lecturing than dialogging. I don't know. If anyone has ever given a talk to a group you know that a group of your peers is the toughest crowd. TFA Shelby Chapter has many long time patriotic and very well informed members. I am sure that is why Mike wanted to give his debut speech there. I feel honored to be part of what may become a catalyst to the growth of TFA.

Mike stated repeatedly that the speech was NOT the official position of TFA. He did state that when it is finished he HOPES that it can be used by TFA to increase our membership and influence. It was intended to be a very preliminary draft. I repeat, very preliminary draft. Mike intends to promote TFA at NO CHARGE. He is not asking for anything except our input and support.

I did not hear Mike state that TN is a concealed carry state. Maybe he did, I just did not hear it that way. He did say that it was stupid (or something to that effect). No doubt a very bad choice of words. I bet he would like to expunge that statement. Not to put words in Mike's mouth, but what he was attempting to say is that just because open carry is legal, that it is always a good idea. He also said (paraphrasing) that for all practical purposes that civilian handgun carry = concealed carry. He gave several instances where open carry has been documented to be a bad idea. Detective Jim stated that in his opinion open carry is a bad idea for most civilians (and off duty cops). It is my opinion that open carry is a bad idea for ME. I understand that open carry is constitutional and all of that. Sometimes I open carry on my property. I do not open carry in public. Maybe good for somebody, bad for me.

Mike and Pat wanted to give the talk and look for input from a friendly audience. They obviously found areas that need to be improved. Mike wants input to make the talk better. We should give him constructive criticism. He's a big boy, he can take it. Pat, Jim, Mike and i had a conversation in the parking lot after the meeting. Mike was very interested in how his speech came across. Each of us had some thoughts about improving it.

We should not bash one of our own. We should give constructive advice and further our struggle to achieve full 2A rights.

If anyone has a disagreement with what Mike Roberts said, he/she should contact Mike and arrange a meeting. I am sure that he would welcome that.

I support Pat in his decision to invite Mike Roberts.

I look forward to working with Mike Roberts in the years to come. He may have a couple of things to learn about handgun carry, but don't we all?

B. Franklin once said "We had better hang together or we will certainly hand seperately"

Kenny Crenshaw

[TN_Mike]

Good post Kenny. I agree with most of it.

I heard some things way differently than you did and maybe that just shows how much the speech needs to be worked on.

I don't have a problem with Pat at all. I don't want to have anyone come away from this with that idea. I think Pat has that idea as he seems to be, so far, refusing to respond to any email I send to him.

Maybe it is best if I just disengage myself from the chapter. I think I may have worn out my welcome there. That was not my intent.

[Kenny Crenshaw]

Mike,

You certainly have not worn out your welcome. I would certainly miss you if you did not come. Please don't let one disagreeable meeting sour you on TFA Shelby County. We need your input and support.

I intend to meet with Mike Roberts and get some understanding as to why he has taken what seem to be contrary positions.

One of my all time favorite stories is when Sec. of War Stanton made the comment that Abraham Lincoln was a fool. One of Mr. Lincolns aides ran and told him what the Sec. had said. The aid was sure that Lincoln would fire the Secretery. When Mr. Lincoln heard what Stanton had said, Mr. Lincoln said "Mr. Stanton is a very wise man. If he says I am a fool it must certainly be so. I must go and find out why".

Mike, if you say that Mike Roberts is in error, I bet he would like the opportunity to find out why.

See you next month.

Kenny

[johnharris]

[TN_Mike]

Thanks Kenny! I would miss talking to you. You are one of the most logical people I know.

And John, thank you, that is good to know.

[Kenny Crenshaw]

Mike,

We have a lot of work to do to protect our freedoms. We need every soldier.

Don't forget about the TFA booth at the Bartlett Celebration Sept. 25 and 26. We needs all hands on deck.

Kenny

[wlhawk]

Mr. Roberts seemed to imply that gaining additional knowledge and skill with weapons could be a liability in the view of a DA and jury. Gaining experience/training beyond the minimum required for a handgun carry permit, should persuade a jury that we are better able to react during real world situations than if we had only the basic skills to gain a permit.

[TN_Mike]

wlhawk, that is my belief as well. And from the email I got from Massad Ayoob on the subject the Monday after the meeting in question, he agrees as well. And honestly, I will believe a man like Ayoob who is a nationally recognized expert in the field, has written several books on the use of firearms in self defense and the legal consequences of it, including a few text books on the subject plus running one of the most respected firearms self defense training institutions in the USA, over the opinions of the speaker we had there that night.

But that's just me.